Atheism

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Jul 12 2010, 4:02 am (Edited on Jul 12 2010, 1:09 pm)
I love blog posts about religion. I love hearing people proclaim from the digital rooftops how they've found Jesus, backing up their faith with arguments based entirely on emotion. I love hearing people foam at the mouth over how terribly evil all religion is. I don't much care what you believe, just so long as it places arbitary restrictions on other people, you're closed-minded, and are dishonest in your beliefs. You see,

I'm a blog reader.

But in spite of that, these are my thoughts on the subject matter: as human beings we are opinionated, and we want to find congruency between our opinions and those of people we care about. More so, things that are deeply integrated into our daily lives, such as religion for religious people, or politics for politicians. Therefore it should not come as a surprise that the people who care about you want you to be not only honest, but open about these things. To consider the opposite point of view: wouldn't you want to know, if the person you were dating was racist? Even if she is the most respectful and honest person in the world, I would feel betrayed if I one day found out my girlfriend is racist, regardless of whether she hid it or simply did not 'openly say it'. To many people (the girl you dated included), religion carries a lot of weight, if not as much as racism, and I don't think this should come as a surprise.

This, of course, does not stand when discussing people that you have no relation to, and that you do not want to have a relationship with. I think there's nothing wrong, and even something moral, about not expressing one's more disagreeable opinions (such as atheism or theism are) in public, without context. It also does not stand when you express a desire to not state your opinion, which is something others should respect -- however this is irrelevant to you because you are, as you said, honest about religion, or at least religious orientation. [edit: apparently you aren't and I misread]
Jul 12 2010, 4:09 am
Toadfish wrote:
I love blog posts about religion. I love hearing people proclaim from the digital rooftops how they've found Jesus, backing up their faith with arguments based entirely on emotion. I love hearing people foam at the mouth over how terribly evil all religion is. I don't much care what you believe, just so long as it places arbitrary restrictions on other people, you're closed-minded, and are dishonest in your beliefs. You see,

I'm a blog reader.

+2 internets right there.

Joking aside, I have to agree with you Iain. I myself am supposed to be a muslim but don't really practice my faith. However, that does not mean I still can't learn a lesson or two from the ethics Islam, or any other religions teach. They are mostly healthy and are designed to be for the user's good.

I believe everyone, religious or not should at least study the teachings of a religion because at the core a religion is just a way to make people do the right thing. It has been veiled by this black cloth of doom called 'bias', but those smart enough to see past that cloth are the real winners. :)

And hey, if there really is a 'God', everything would be so much easier. It doesn't mean you have to preach his teachings or worship him at all. He's just a good way to blame things on nowadays. He's also a good explanation for the most complex problems of the universe. If only we could somehow harness his power. :d

Honestly though, if there is a god, he is not at all spiteful or full of revenge. If he was that narrow-minded things would be a lot different.
Jul 12 2010, 4:18 am
I think that religion is just a way to keep people from doing things that are against the leader of that religions beliefs by promising good things if they listen and follow what the major entity(s) want, and if they don't, then bad things happen to them. It's also a way to keep people from wondering where the humans came from or how the whole universe was created. Instead of having to wonder and worry, they just get told the story of how everything was created by an entity.

Me? I believe that there is an "Almighty Creator" sort of entity, but I also believe that the Entity does not require/want to be worshiped, has no influence on your thoughts or actions, and doesn't send you to hell or heaven.
Jul 12 2010, 4:27 am
Alathon wrote:
Its certainly still a belief, yes; its the belief that you must have material/physical/scientific evidence of something in order to adhere to whatever that 'it' happens to be.

No. This is called scientific naturalism; the belief that only scientific laws govern the universe. Atheism is simply the belief that no God exists.

Call it the belief of requiring absolute proof, or scientific proof, depending on your spin. Most commonly this is referred to as science as a religion.

Only by people whom do not understand what a religion is or deliberately misrepresenting a position so that you can refute it.
This is a fallacious argument:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A claim infers/requires arguments, a belief does not. This is the key difference between a claim and a belief.

A belief is a conviction you hold.
A claim is an assertion you make.
You can claim your beliefs are true.
You can believe your claims are true.

I am free to believe whatever I want, but if I claim something, I do so in an attempt to argue towards a specific position. I can believe that there is a God, but if I want to claim that there is a God then I must have arguments in favor of that.

Believing something out of ignorance or in spite of evidence is called a superstition.
You can believe or claim whatever you want. That's why people are wrong, so very often.

Atheism certainly celebrates the non-existance of a deity. That is, in every sense, similar to a religion that celebrates the existance of a deity. It goes both ways.

We also celebrate the new year.
Do you propose we are all New Yearsians?

There are many ways to look at what a religion is. I consider a system of beliefs that are all-or-nothing a religion.

You can consider any word to mean anything you like, but words do have an official meaning, hence the existance of dictionaries.

A religion is a set of principles held with faith - that is, believing something with no evidence to support it.
But please, don't take my word for it:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

This makes atheism a religion

It does not.

since if you believe there is no deity then there are a series of follow-up beliefs which you must also have: The world wasn't created by a God

Obviously you have not heard of Pantheism: The belief that the universe is, or was, the God or a God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

humans do not have a soul, etc. etc.

One can choose not to believe in a God, but still believe in a soul: this is, essentially, Buddhism - though this differs from person to person.

Which is fair enough. But uniting under an Atheism banner is no different than uniting under a Christian

Oh, that's for sure. I remember this time when the Atheist church of England rode their knights over to the holy land of Jerusalem for these things called the Crusades - waaaaaait a minute...

or Scientology banner (Except if you unite under a Scientology banner, they give you free rides on the world-ending laser-shooting squid). So when people make a claim that begins with, 'I'm an Atheist' and don't elaborate, then that is a religious claim.

Saying that you are an atheist is a declaration of a belief, not an assertion, and hence, not a claim.

And something like, 'I have no need to prove that X doesn't exist, to make my point' is just that. It's basically saying:

You do not need to disprove something in order to not believe in it. That's as absurd as saying you MUST believe in flying space dragons as they haven't been disproven. Choosing not to believe in something despite evidence for it is either a superstition or a delusion.


PS: Sorry Iain.
Jul 12 2010, 6:34 am
Alathon wrote:
Some would argue that being certain about God, or some god, or something omnipotent (pick your poison) not existing is in and of itself a belief system.

ohboyherewego.jpg


by the way, iain, you should probably also clear the air on any interesting sexual fetishes. you know, just in case
Jul 12 2010, 6:52 am
Hiddeknight wrote:
... [lots of stuff] ...

This goes to show that you can jump into a discussion, look up definitions of every term that's being used, and still have no idea what people are talking about =)

Alathon was making a point that is larger than any individual word or sentence in his comment. You've properly dissected his words but in the process you missed his point entirely.

Zaole wrote:
by the way, iain, you should probably also clear the air on any interesting sexual fetishes. you know, just in case

Ha!

Iain, please don't take my amusement as support, we don't need to hear about that =)
Jul 12 2010, 7:14 am
Very well written article, Iain.

I would offer this little bit of advice -- there's little utility in offering the actual term "atheism" in a dating situation. There's a finality in the actual word -- whether justified or not -- much like how if a person you are dating were to say, "Jesus is my savior."

As a bit of disclosure myself, my wife grew up Catholic, her mom was a nun for 10 or so years before meeting my wife's dad. Perhaps when I have more time, I can disclose more.
Jul 12 2010, 7:31 am
What exactly is atheism? Hmm, From what I have seen, it means a disbelief in God, or a belief in No God. Either way, it means you to have a belief on something that is a rather dull question.

Luckily, I agree. Funny thing is, I do not believe in any religion whatsoever either. Im agnostic, tending to drift towards atheism. When atheists and religious people alike try to say they are correct, I pretty much laugh at both. Its pretty ignorant to think you know something, when you are unable to prove it. Like a student in Algebra, who can spit out the quadratic formula, and says he knows it - Yet it unable to derive it or use it in any unique manner.

Hence, why when asked about anything "metaphysical", I just state "I dont know" - For most things. Neither do other people, I can see 50+ religions have morals, yet not one can explain the point in them.

The only way most people can explain morals is by using 1) God says so 2) Incorrect use of Empathy 3) A belief in no morals(Complete selfishness). Complete lack of critical thinking at that.

Eh.. I suppose I disagree with the "keeping quiet" concept though. I do not respect beliefs unless they are somewhat justified. Even then, I expect an understanding that an individuals beliefs can be subject to change. Creating absolute concepts when the external world is literally filtered through to us, is rather self-defeating.

Not saying that I shove that in everyones face, but if I were to be asked, I would not hide it - Thats what I mean.

Not to say beliefs are anything bad, they can indeed be very helpful. They build concepts, even if they arent true. Such as zero being a combination of equal oppositions(This concept can help prove a number divided by zero is infinity, if you apply partial fractions). But unjustified beliefs are dangerous.
Jul 12 2010, 7:43 am (Edited on Jul 12 2010, 8:13 am)
I'm somewhat unorthodox Taoist/Buddhist myself, although I don't buy into the cosmology much, I do think the practice is good.

The thing is, in terms of intellectual fulfillment, atheism will only get you so far. One can only sit in insistence of "there definitely is no God" for so long before they emerge as merely a reflection of ignorance on the opposite end of the spectrum of the very "there definitely is a God" they are opposing.

In other words, whether you choose to be certain there is a God or certain there is not a God, it will require you are beholden to a stubborn idea not well-grounded in reality. Being free of such an idea uncages the mind and allows it interpret the data of our senses without the interference of belief or disbelief (which is merely a belief to the contrary).

Though to live snubbing our emotions would seem to better enable us as more logical individuals, in truth we were not created as wholly logical creatures, our emotional aspects are every bit a product of untold billions of years of evolution, and to snub that is to remain incomplete in such a way as to repel the ladies. Robots may produce excellent computations, but who wants to get romantically entangled with one?

You're at an age where your Intelligence score is very high. Time to start pumping that Wisdom. I could recommend a few books that helped me in this regard: Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and The Miracle Of Mindfulness (and other Thich Nhat Hanh books) are a great introduction to the practice of mindfulness meditation. Neither book pushes beliefs, but rather introduces practices which open the mind to greater self-realization in living.
Jul 12 2010, 7:48 am
Its pretty ignorant to think you know something, when you are unable to prove it. Like a student in Algebra, who can spit out the quadratic formula, and says he knows it - Yet it unable to derive it or use it in any unique manner.

I agree with you but I'm not sure where you're going with the quadratic formula. It can be proven. Atheists aren't silly because they claim to believe in the absence of a god without understanding the proof, they're silly because there is no proof!

More on point for this post, the best way to answer this question is just to say that you aren't religious or that you don't go to church. If you want (and if it applies) you can stick a "I was raised ______, but ..." on the front of it.
Jul 12 2010, 8:04 am
I consider myself an Atheist (and not the "I don't really know" or "There's no proof" kind, but more of the Penn Jillette "I believe that there is no God" kind)

But I, too, tend to keep that matter to myself (at least in the real world... I've mentioned it on the Internet, including here, dozens of times) It seems to me that there's no decent point in bringing it up with those around me, as it only leads to unnecessary, unconstructive, and ultimately pointless confrontations (especially with my mostly devout Baptist extended family, including a Grandmother that spends more time at her Church than she does at home)

On the Internet, though, things are different... It's much easier to have intelligent and rational discussions of the matter through this medium and with the other persons I tend to speak with through this medium... I don't ever intend to convert anyone (including myself), but I do like the chance to use others as sounding boards...

But yeah, in real life, I find very little use in shouting it from the rooftops... Not because I feel it is some dark secret to hide (though I see how that notion can come about), but because (like I said above), it tends to cause more harm than good to bring it up...

In a bit of hilarious coincidence, in the middle of typing the above, I had to get up to answer the door, only to be handed some materials from a door-to-door Jehovah's Witness...lol Is this a sign?
Jul 12 2010, 8:15 am
Let me clear something up. Atheist means, generally, not a belief in the lack of a god but rather the lack of a belief in a god. The two sound a lot alike but have totally different meanings.

I am Atheist and I freely admit that there is no way to disprove the existence of a god(however the god of the bible can be disproved). Because I can't disprove it means I have to assume that the possibility of a god existing is there, but good old Russell's Teapot and the Invisible Pink Unicorn show us that there are an infinite number of things we can't disprove. Just because they are named doesn't mean they should get special treatment.
Jul 12 2010, 8:24 am (Edited on Jul 12 2010, 8:30 am)
Danial.Beta wrote:
Let me clear something up. Atheist means, generally, not a belief in the lack of a god but rather the lack of a belief in a god. The two sound a lot alike but have totally different meanings.

atheism
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French
atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
Date: 1546

1 archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity
(Source: Merriam-Webster online.)

There probably is a word to describe what you're talking about here, but atheism isn't it. Probably agnosticism.
Jul 12 2010, 8:30 am
Well, it probably depends largely on who wrote the definition of it, but atheist as a direct definition would be "not one who believes in the existence of a god or gods" assuming that theist is defined as "one who believes in the existence of a god or gods".

Of course, someone who is atheist can believe in the lack of a god, but that is not exclusive of my definition of atheist.

Meaning only that it is someone who doesn't believe in a god or gods. Nothing more or nothing less. This is how most atheists today use the term. By this definition most agnostics would also be consider atheists. Agnostic being one who is doubtful or noncommittal about a subject, in this case god. By not believing in god you are by (my)definition an atheist.
Jul 12 2010, 8:34 am (Edited on Jul 12 2010, 8:57 am)
In the end, atheism is a word, and like any word it will carry a meaning based upon the understanding individual who hears it.

You're certainly free to go on believing that atheism is no more than the lack of a belief, but in the face of New Atheist movements, the assumption of the greater public towards your labeling yourself as such will differ from your preference.

What you're referring to is probably more specifically referred to as negative atheism (according to that article, it's also known as "weak" or "soft" atheism). However, there is also "positive" or "strong/hard" atheism, and these indeed insist that the belief in at least one God is definitely false.

So keep in mind that in labeling yourself as an atheist, you're open for either interpretation without further clarification. You'll be lucky if most people will give you the chance to clarify. Might want to find a better word.
Jul 12 2010, 8:52 am
Atheists don't just lack the belief that a theist has, they have the opposite belief. A theist believes that a god or gods exist, an atheist believes that zero gods exist. If you asked someone "how many gods exist?", here are the answers you'd get for each type of person you ask:

Christian: one
Atheist: zero
Agnostic: it cannot be determined
Apathetic: I don't care

Many people whose beliefs fall into the last two categories incorrectly consider themselves "atheists".
Jul 12 2010, 9:16 am
For what it's worth, Iain, alcohol consumed in moderation is linked with many health benefits. Here is a very short paper (if you could even call it that) I wrote for a nutrition class regarding the benefits of alcohol, sourced with several journals and studies.

Personally, I don't drink at all- firstly, I'm underage. Secondly, I find alcohol to taste nasty. But if you like the taste of a good beer, do know that having a drink a day is likely going to contribute to good health. Just don't get carried away!
Jul 12 2010, 9:29 am (Edited on Jul 12 2010, 10:02 am)
Geldonyetich wrote:
The thing is, in terms of intellectual fulfillment, atheism will only get you so far. One can only sit in insistence of "there definitely is no God" for so long before they emerge as merely a reflection of ignorance on the opposite end of the spectrum of the very "there definitely is a God" they are opposing.

In other words, whether you choose to be certain there is a God or certain there is not a God, it will require you are beholden to a stubborn idea not well-grounded in reality. Being free of such an idea uncages the mind and allows it interpret the data of our senses without the interference of belief or disbelief (which is merely a belief to the contrary).

Of course, conviction and ignorance are different things. There are people on both sides of the spectrum that are impossibly stubborn about their beliefs, and admirably so. Unfortunately, there is a thin line between ignorance and conviction and we are often tempted to label such people as close-minded, along with the rest of the herd. In any case, consider that certainty can be an incredible thing, just as it can be a very stupid one.
Jul 12 2010, 10:41 am (Edited on Jul 12 2010, 7:37 pm)
There's a lot here to comment on. As someone who loves the English language for all its strange rules and odd construction, I have to agree that Danial.Beta has the correct definition of the word "Atheist". The word literally denotes "a person without a god". The word was generally used by the religious (or "spiritual", whatever) majority to refer to persons who were outside the norm, in that they did not worship any god. As such it can refer to someone who simply doesn't believe in any god and doesn't really care, or it can refer to someone who strongly believes that there is no god. This problem with the nomenclature has led to the use of the qualifiers "hard" and "soft". So, as you can see, it all leads back to tacos.

Me, I'm a Crunchy Atheist.

-----

All kidding aside, I am a hard atheist: I believe that there is no spiritual reality. What is more, I do believe that there is solid proof. As I said, I'm not here to convince anyone, but I figure some of the other atheists commenting might find my rational interesting. For starters, I'm a mechanist. I believe that every observable phenomenon has a physical explanation.

Let's say for a moment that there was a soul attached to my body. Whatever I observe has a physical explanation. I observe myself. I observe myself observing myself. I observe everything that I identify as "me". Everything I identify as "me" has a physical explanation. So, even if I do have a soul, it is not the "me" that I identify with, and I do not experience it in any way: it is more foreign to me than the sand of Mars, which at least interacts with me gravitationally.

So even if there is a god and souls and all sorts of other unfalsifiable things, they have no effect on me, what I should be believe, and how I should behave. When I die, everything that I identify as myself will degrade and rot. The complex system of interactions which produces my mind will cease. Even if some external soul goes off to be with God, what I know as me will surely die. Hypothetical God has not stopped this process for anyone else, and I am certain that I will not be saved from it, either.

-----

Geldonyetich wrote
Though to live snubbing our emotions would seem to better enable us as more logical individuals, in truth we were not created as wholly logical creatures, our emotional aspects are every bit a product of untold billions of years of evolution, and to snub that is to remain incomplete in such a way as to repel the ladies. Robots may produce excellent computations, but who wants to get romantically entangled with one?

Just because I am an atheist doesn't mean I spurn all emotions. Emotions are tools; they are like powerful motors which, when ordered with our desires, can help us obtain our goals. What I am against is the view that emotions are the working on spirits within us. I feel that the majority of religious people view emotions as spiritual in nature. This stunts our understanding of the physical processes which control emotions, knowledge which could be very helpful in psychology and medicine.

-----

Airjoe wrote:
For what it's worth, Iain, alcohol consumed in moderation is linked with many health benefits. Here is a very short paper (if you could even call it that) I wrote for a nutrition class regarding the benefits of alcohol, sourced with several journals and studies.

Thanks for the link! I am sceptical of claims that consumption of what is basically poison has health benefits, but I'll read through the paper. Being open and honest with evidence that refutes my beliefs is one of my three core principles.
Jul 12 2010, 11:20 am
I'll throw in my two cents, because I'm bored at work.

1) Atheists are silly. So are Theists. I happen to be a theist, which gives me lots of opportunities to practice my defensive skills. My reasoning for believing in some form of deity is simply because science cannot explain why anything ever existed in the first place and never will be able to, because science is all about cause and effect. It always requires something to be there first, some scenario to be set up first. I realize that this is some theology talk, but I feel as though that is a fairly rational explanation for why one might choose to believe in something.

I'm not trying to convince anybody else here, but since this seems to be a pretty civilized conversation, I thought I'd share what I consider to be a logical reason to believe in something other than science. Now, what that something might be is a whole different story.

2) Booze is good. You're crazy. Personally, I drink because it relaxes me and therefore I tend to have a great time while consuming alcohol. I used to think that getting drunk was stupid because I was concerned with always being as smart and witty as possible. I've learned a lot since then.

3) With enough ^ Taco Bell is glorious.
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