EmpirezTeam wrote:
You're not getting it. You can't say you care about someone if you waited months to warn them of a potential danger when you could've done it a long time ago. Again, most consumers do not operate in this manner. He's not of the ilk of a Ralph Nader consumer advocate, he's just a guy. | |
I really don't see how it was an attack either. A complaint, yes, but how in the world do you classify that as an 'attack'?
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Masterdan wrote:
Why you continue to try and tell all of us that he has no right to complain, when clearly nobody agrees with you, is beyond me. Because you haven't proved anything. You're doing the exact same thing I'm doing. You THINK Silk's motives to ban him are "grudges" because you THINK that Neblim's assumptions are facts. | |
Lummox JR wrote:
I can respect that some people don't read any attack into Neblim's post. I did; I think it was definitely one. Opinions are very split, but I think it can be agreed that it was near the borderline in any case. So it's perfectly understandable that even if someone doesn't feel Neblim crossed that line, others may disagree. So consumer warnings of any sort cross the line... Well, if this is the gospel word, I will follow Teka's lead and not gift any memberships until this gospel word has been reversed. | |
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Masterdan wrote: You're a moron. How many people does it take to prove to you that you are completely mislead in this whole argument? If you take a step back and read the other comments, WE HAVE SHOWED YOU PROOF. You just keep falling back on saying "He assumes it, cause, you know, I know that stuff.". | |
hasn't this settled yet.? so many immature references being thrown around :(
besides it seems Tom has taken leave of this conversation for the moment so without him being involved, there is little progress to be made. | |
You have not given me proof. Just because you say its proof doesn't mean its proof, it just means you believe its true.
Hey guys, heres a link to the Flying Spaghetti Monster: http://knowsnothing.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/ flyingspaghettimonster.png It must exist! After all, I posted a link! All you have are ASSUMPTIONS FROM NEBLIM. All you have is his word and a link to Silk's blog. This is ridiculous. I'm done here. I have people in my game to moderate right now. Continue your Silk Wizard bullying. I hope you gain something from it. If you have any sort of proof of Silk holding grudges ( which you don't, all you have is an opinionated blog post from Neblim ) then you can page me. I'm not holding my breath, however. | |
EmpirezTeam wrote:
I'm done here. I have people in my game to moderate right now. Continue your Silk Wizard bullying. I hope you gain something from it. You're being ridiculous. This is about BYOND moderation, not about Silk. | |
That kid needs to take a logic class.
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OK... my take. I THINK I've read through the whole issue. I spent the last 48 hours hovering over the porcelain goddess (due to an unfortunate battle-- that I lost-- with some tainted fish), so I'm not 100% coherent, but I'll do my best.
While ostensibly the problem here is that Neblim's post was unfairly suppressed, it seems to me that the real problem is that said suppression only occurred because it involved SilkWizard; i.e; we have a double-standard at play. To this claim, I must disagree. The fact is that SilkWizard is one of our more heavily moderated users (because he makes a lot of controversial posts) and we do not-- or at least don't intentionally-- give him any special leeway. We have hidden dozens of his posts, some only because they erupted into flame-wars in the comments. His post mocking Sonder's publicity attempt (perhaps in jest) was suppressed just the other day. Certain users in this community are polarizing-- SilkWizard perhaps more than any-- and where you have polarizing users, you have a lot of passion. And, to put it simply, passion introduces bias. So people may think we're siding one way or the other when in fact we're just trying to do the best we can to keep the community somewhat sane. It's like sports: half the fans think the league is out to get them because things don't go their way. Now, onto the issue of the post suppression itself. This is very tricky. The post is a complaint with a subtle attack tagged to the end. The problem is that the we cannot establish the legitimacy of the complaint (whether said ban was warranted) within this medium, because the only person who can really provide a case for the defense is SilkWizard and Neblim can (and I believe did) just obliterate that. So basically all that can come out of this is hearsay and another flame war. Realistically, if that post stays up, what ends up happening is the following: 1) SilkWizard "haters" pile on him and bash him in the comments. SilkWizard is banned from defense. 2) SilkWizard makes a response on his own blog. Neblim is banned from defense. 3) We end up having to suppress everything. So was a preemptive strike justified? Given the past history of this sort of thing, I say yes. We are simply not a mature enough community to handle this gracefully. The truth is that the public front page is inherently unstable (because it gives everyone their "fifteen minutes of fame") and really requires the community to buy into our moderation, even if it seems arbitrary at the time. The only alternative would be to remove the front page entirely or require approval of posts ahead of time. Onto the backlash... One thing that really annoys me is when people don't respect our decisions and fight back by deliberately reposting/rephrasing, knowing that all it's going to do is require further moderation. The problem is these user are operating on the assumption that we have a vendetta or are doing things out of spite, rather than what we believe to be the good of the community. Please, in the future, if you have a problem, don't take it to a public venue but simply contact us on the support form. As far as the comments about people "boycotting BYOND" or what-not, obviously that's your decision. I just implore that you consider our position here. The whole community/website side of BYOND is a spin-off, and one that frankly I'd be happy to live without, except at the moment it is the only thing bringing in any income. The majority of our time is spent on the software, which largely goes unappreciated. But the two are currently attached: kill one and you kill the other. So please don't be rash about penalizing BYOND because of a small segment of the project and community. | |
Bootyboy wrote:
So consumer warnings of any sort cross the line... No, I think consumer warnings are perfectly legitimate. The way Neblim wrote his was inappropriate for the front page. Like I said, others may disagree on whether his post went over the line, but he was at the very least skirting it. For my part I feel that "You are a horrible liar" is a far cry from "This contradicts earlier assertions that no one would be banned in advance". | |
Lummox JR wrote:
No, I think consumer warnings are perfectly legitimate. The way Neblim wrote his was inappropriate for the front page. You have suppressed every way he has tried to express his discontent. You are being extremely intellectually dishonest here. Like I said, others may disagree on whether his post went over the line, but he was at the very least skirting it. For my part I feel that "You are a horrible liar" is a far cry from "This contradicts earlier assertions that no one would be banned in advance". Funny though, the offending part should be "horrible", not the liar part, as it is not hard at all to unearth either lying or ignorance for reference. Neblim merely illustrated a point where he believed he was lied to. | |
Tom wrote:
While ostensibly the problem here is that Neblim's post was unfairly suppressed... What do you think Neblim and Masterdan... you have been vindicated. | |
Why don't we just do what should have been done on the day of this post and delete this blog? Completely.
I remember reading somewhere that byond has nothing to do with what happens in individual games.They will not get involved if you get banned from anything individual. Neblim here chose to buy a separate subscription to a game that boarder-lined broke copyright laws. He got banned for whatever reason(I doubt it was for no reason since I have played nestalgia for extended periods of time without bans) and now expects byond to punish silkwizard for it. Tom and lummox JR are already doing this player a favor by responding.They are not obligated to do anything else.So i suggest neblim 1)deals with it or 2) packs his bags and leave like he has been threatening to do. | |
Bootyboy wrote:
Lummox JR wrote: That guy was clearly pissed off, he had a legitimate complaint and the reason its invalid is because he called the crook who banned him for no reason and stole his money a "horrible liar"? Is that what makes a blog so horribly inappropriate?! I have been very angry about blog supressions in which I have used minor curse words such as douchebag and shit, but in this instance we cannot tolerate any dissenting opinion that uses the word "liar"?! Where does this stop? are we going to sanitize byond such that nothing critical is every public? Clearly the vast majority of BYOND has vocalized that they find critiques of business operations on BYOND to be public, because these things are invaluable and provide accountability to shady business practices. If he had been completely out of line in his critisism then yes, block the blog post and give him an explanation that he swore throughout the whole thing (something that I would understand a supression), and when he publishes a less rediculous post it should be left up. I dont understand all of this, I refuse to believe that if somebody had a similarly worded legitimate critisism of another byond developer that it would be removed. Something is really slimy here. | |
What's the difference between an 'attack' and a 'rant' in BYOND staff's eyes? Rather, what constitutes an 'attack', and why?
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Master rla wrote:
Neblim here chose to buy a separate subscription to a game that boarder-lined broke copyright laws. He got banned for whatever reason(I doubt it was for no reason since I have played nestalgia for extended periods of time without bans) and now expects byond to punish silkwizard for it. No, this argument was caused by the admins removing Neblims post. Neblim never asked for any punishment towards Silkwizard, but to simply tell others what Silk has done. | |
Magicbeast20 wrote:
Master rla wrote: So what? Silkwizard can do whatever he wants to. It's his game.Should I make a blog about every developer who has banned me from a game? | |
Can you just elaborate on what made it an attack? Because I'm just not seeing it, and I don't think most people here are either.