Man is God

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May 30 2010, 12:28 pm
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Basically you're saying doctors would like there to be less patients.

Less patients = less demand for doctors. Do you have any idea how many people are going to school to get a job in the medical field? You think they want there to be a decline in sick people in the world so the chances of them getting a job decreases?

And you say I'm the moron here?

There wont be a less demand for them because there will still be a need for medicine. Your just too much of a stuck up moron to get that through your head.
May 30 2010, 12:40 pm
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Basically you're saying doctors would like there to be less patients.

Less patients = less demand for doctors. Do you have any idea how many people are going to school to get a job in the medical field? You think they want there to be a decline in sick people in the world so the chances of them getting a job decreases?

And you say I'm the moron here?

You are the moron here. There wouldn't be a decrease in the number of patients, because like I said, there's always something else to take the former plague's place. Doctor's don't have trouble getting jobs, there's need for them everywhere, always.


I've tried explaining this to you 3 different times now, if you don't get it this time, I've lost hope.
May 30 2010, 12:53 pm
The point I'm trying to make can be applied to anything. Maybe if I use other examples, you can see how easy it is to understand this:

Would the president of McDonalds want everyone in the world to never be hungry? No, they would eventually go out of business.

Would dentists want everyone in the world brush and floss their teeth properly to never have cavities? No, the only time they'd make money is for cleanings and wisdom tooth extraction. They wouldn't be able to cash in on cavities, absess, gingivitis and the long list of other crap that goes wrong in your mouth.

My entire point is that if no one needs a doctor, if no one needs fast food, if no one needs a dentist, every doctor, every fast food employee and every dentist will lose their job. Why is this so mind bending for you?
May 30 2010, 12:57 pm
Magicbeast20 wrote:
You should seriously get your head out of your fatass and read what your saying. You think the world is fueled by complete corruption and greed when it isn't. It's people like you who make this world the shit place it is.

My goodness. The only way you could make a comment as dumb as this is if you like, fell asleep during your US History class.

You can skim through a middle school history textbook and see several examples of wars, famine, murder etc. that occured all because of greed and the desire for power.

This world is full of corruption. I'm sorry Magicbeast, but the world where everything is just fine and dandy only exists in your imagination.


May 30 2010, 4:54 pm
EmpirezTeam wrote:
The point I'm trying to make can be applied to anything. Maybe if I use other examples, you can see how easy it is to understand this:

Would the president of McDonalds want everyone in the world to never be hungry? No, they would eventually go out of business.

Would dentists want everyone in the world brush and floss their teeth properly to never have cavities? No, the only time they'd make money is for cleanings and wisdom tooth extraction. They wouldn't be able to cash in on cavities, absess, gingivitis and the long list of other crap that goes wrong in your mouth.

My entire point is that if no one needs a doctor, if no one needs fast food, if no one needs a dentist, every doctor, every fast food employee and every dentist will lose their job. Why is this so mind bending for you?

No, what is so "mind bending" is the fact that you are trying to make a point, all the while said point is senseless. McDonalds will never have to worry about people not having to eat. Dentists will never worry about people not caring for their teeth. So to try to make a relevant point off of something that is counter-intuitive.

I don't know why you keep trying to make the point, several people have explained it, very clearly mind you, that your point is invalid due to there always being a need for medical attention. Healthcare isn't a newspaper or a corded telephone. It's something people will always need, at least to some degree.

Maybe in a hundred years we'll have mono cellular organisms that would fulfill the duties of the doctor, but another market would open up for the people to ensure the cells are working. They'd need a high level college degree(aka Doctorate). So even then, they have job security.,
May 30 2010, 4:54 pm
You are obviously too stupid to reason with. I won't be commenting further on this useless argument.
May 30 2010, 6:08 pm
Magicbeast20 wrote:
You are obviously too stupid to reason with. I won't be commenting further on this useless argument.

The only thing useless is your belief in an imaginary world where everything is pure and holy. You can argue once you acknowledge reality.
May 30 2010, 6:11 pm
Disturbed Puppy wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote:
The point I'm trying to make can be applied to anything. Maybe if I use other examples, you can see how easy it is to understand this:

Would the president of McDonalds want everyone in the world to never be hungry? No, they would eventually go out of business.

Would dentists want everyone in the world brush and floss their teeth properly to never have cavities? No, the only time they'd make money is for cleanings and wisdom tooth extraction. They wouldn't be able to cash in on cavities, absess, gingivitis and the long list of other crap that goes wrong in your mouth.

My entire point is that if no one needs a doctor, if no one needs fast food, if no one needs a dentist, every doctor, every fast food employee and every dentist will lose their job. Why is this so mind bending for you?

No, what is so "mind bending" is the fact that you are trying to make a point, all the while said point is senseless. McDonalds will never have to worry about people not having to eat. Dentists will never worry about people not caring for their teeth. So to try to make a relevant point off of something that is counter-intuitive.

I don't know why you keep trying to make the point, several people have explained it, very clearly mind you, that your point is invalid due to there always being a need for medical attention. Healthcare isn't a newspaper or a corded telephone. It's something people will always need, at least to some degree.

Maybe in a hundred years we'll have mono cellular organisms that would fulfill the duties of the doctor, but another market would open up for the people to ensure the cells are working. They'd need a high level college degree(aka Doctorate). So even then, they have job security.,

The point is not if they will or will not have to worry about customers. The point is would they have jobs if there were no customers. How does a doctor stay in business if no one ever needed a doctor? Answer that question.

May 30 2010, 6:12 pm
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Disturbed Puppy wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote:
The point I'm trying to make can be applied to anything. Maybe if I use other examples, you can see how easy it is to understand this:

Would the president of McDonalds want everyone in the world to never be hungry? No, they would eventually go out of business.

Would dentists want everyone in the world brush and floss their teeth properly to never have cavities? No, the only time they'd make money is for cleanings and wisdom tooth extraction. They wouldn't be able to cash in on cavities, absess, gingivitis and the long list of other crap that goes wrong in your mouth.

My entire point is that if no one needs a doctor, if no one needs fast food, if no one needs a dentist, every doctor, every fast food employee and every dentist will lose their job. Why is this so mind bending for you?

No, what is so "mind bending" is the fact that you are trying to make a point, all the while said point is senseless. McDonalds will never have to worry about people not having to eat. Dentists will never worry about people not caring for their teeth. So to try to make a relevant point off of something that is counter-intuitive.

I don't know why you keep trying to make the point, several people have explained it, very clearly mind you, that your point is invalid due to there always being a need for medical attention. Healthcare isn't a newspaper or a corded telephone. It's something people will always need, at least to some degree.

Maybe in a hundred years we'll have mono cellular organisms that would fulfill the duties of the doctor, but another market would open up for the people to ensure the cells are working. They'd need a high level college degree(aka Doctorate). So even then, they have job security.,

The point is not if they will or will not have to worry about customers. The point is would they have jobs if there were no customers. How does a doctor stay in business if no one ever needed a doctor? Answer that question.

the black market.
May 30 2010, 7:24 pm
EmpirezTeam wrote:
The point is not if they will or will not have to worry about customers. The point is would they have jobs if there were no customers. How does a doctor stay in business if no one ever needed a doctor? Answer that question.

I don't need to. It's an argument that doesn't need to happen, because it's not going to happen.

People will always need doctors, therefore, doctors have job security. They will always have patients, and therefore will always have customers.

May 30 2010, 7:41 pm
Disturbed Puppy wrote:
Jeff8500 wrote:
EDIT: Also, Disturbed, there is an AIDS antibody, but the African hookers are keeping it to themselves.

Well, then there's plenty of other shit wrong with people that the cell could possibly help cure.

That was a joke...
May 31 2010, 2:04 am (Edited on May 31 2010, 2:10 am)
Disturbed Puppy wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote:
The point is not if they will or will not have to worry about customers. The point is would they have jobs if there were no customers. How does a doctor stay in business if no one ever needed a doctor? Answer that question.

I don't need to. It's an argument that doesn't need to happen, because it's not going to happen.

People will always need doctors, therefore, doctors have job security. They will always have patients, and therefore will always have customers.

I agree with you Disturbed. We'll always need doctors. But a surgeon doesn't live his life hoping he'll never get anyone to perform surgery on. Do you know what that means? That means he wants a person to need surgery.

If you don't believe what I wrote above, then find me a surgeon that will tell me he went to school for 13 years for absolutely nothing.

Even lawyers want there to be sick or injured people. Thats why they're always hawking hospitals, hoping that someone has been injured and needs them to begin a lawsuit.

Some are driven by greed, and some are not, but you don't have to be driven by greed to want someone to require your services. There are good people who want you to be sick as or injured as well. Its just the way things are.

Doctors require sick people the same way the president of McDonalds requires hungry people. I can get an elementary student to understand this.



May 31 2010, 2:40 am
Jamckell wrote:
Create matter.

'matter' is a bit of a tricky one, m'afraid. It's kind of hard to define. The current physics definitions tend to be along the lines of "That which has mass and takes up space", which isn't really a great definition.

Of course, I assume you were referring to the First Law of thermodynamics, and attempting to imply that some sort of supernatural force created everything. I don't see any particular reason to believe that, given that the currently-accepted understanding of the creation of the universe doesn't really require a deity. The Big Bang theory does have some issues, but nothing utterly fatal. I would expect further origin-of-the-universe theories to look a lot like it.

And EmpirezTeam: Believe it or not, most doctors, surgeons, and medical researchers are not psychopaths. They care about people. They'd prefer it if people didn't die, get sick, or otherwise be unhappy.

Next you'll be claiming that physicists know what the Grand Unified Theory is, they just don't want to tell people so they'll still have a job.
May 31 2010, 2:48 am
Jp wrote:
Jamckell wrote:
Create matter.

'matter' is a bit of a tricky one, m'afraid. It's kind of hard to define. The current physics definitions tend to be along the lines of "That which has mass and takes up space", which isn't really a great definition.

Of course, I assume you were referring to the First Law of thermodynamics, and attempting to imply that some sort of supernatural force created everything. I don't see any particular reason to believe that, given that the currently-accepted understanding of the creation of the universe doesn't really require a deity. The Big Bang theory does have some issues, but nothing utterly fatal. I would expect further origin-of-the-universe theories to look a lot like it.

And EmpirezTeam: Believe it or not, most doctors, surgeons, and medical researchers are not psychopaths. They care about people. They'd prefer it if people didn't die, get sick, or otherwise be unhappy.

Next you'll be claiming that physicists know what the Grand Unified Theory is, they just don't want to tell people so they'll still have a job.

I just said you don't have to be evil or driven by greed to want someone to require your services.

Doctors require sick people. No sick people = no need for doctors. 11 years of college down the drain. Do you want to waste 11 years of college, Jp?

Neither do doctors.
May 31 2010, 3:00 am
A cure for everything doesn't necessarily mean no doctoring work - I doubt most doctor's money comes out of extensive cancer treatments (unless they're oncologists). Cures need to be administered. Broken bones and serious internal bleeding need expert skill to treat.

And more to the point, you're still not getting it. Most doctors aren't driven by the profit motive. They go into medicine because they enjoy it, or because they want to help people, or something like that. And because they're people like any other, doctors care about other people. Do you really think every doctor in the world is sitting around going "Ha ha ha! I know how to cure cancer, but I won't, so I can leech money off of patients via chemotherapy!"?

I'm not even sure where you get '11 years of college' from. Are you talking exclusively about anethetists, or what?

I'm a software engineer. Do you think I deliberately leave bugs in my code so I can fix them later? I mean, if I wrote perfect code, I'd be out of a job soon enough!
May 31 2010, 3:11 am
I never said "every doctor", I believe I posted several times that you don't have to be driven by greed to want people to require your services.

The question is are you one of those people in denial about the world around you? Does the thought of the existence of corruption in this world scare you so much until you simply refuse to believe it? This is reality.

This is where I'm getting 11 years of college from.

The question is, Jp, would you like no one to ever need your programming services?
May 31 2010, 3:31 am
EmpirezTeam wrote:
I never said "every doctor", I believe I posted several times that you don't have to be driven by greed to want people to require your services.

The question is are you one of those people in denial about the world around you? Does the thought of the existence of corruption in this world scare you so much until you simply refuse to believe it? This is reality.

This is where I'm getting 11 years of college from.

The question is, Jp, would you like no one to ever need your programming services?

Notice that 3 of those years are working in a hospital. Also note that it's different in many countries - in Australia, for example, it's more like 6 years at a university followed by an internship at a hospital.

What you've said is that everything is curable, and then implied that the reason why some diseases aren't cured is because doctors aren't interested in killing the golden goose. That implies that every medical researcher and doctor is more interested in profit than helping people (and assumes that they make more of a profit from the chemotherapy situation than the no-chemo situation, which is actually not necessarily the case - sure, you get to sell chemo to someone, but if you cure them, you get to treat them for all the other diseases they'll get because they didn't die).

I certainly acknowledge that some people are a little corrupt. But I don't for a minute believe that the majority of people in almost any position are corrupt. People are people, and on average they're kinda average. In short, no, I don't buy into conspiracy-theory nutbaggery, because I'm at least halfway sane.

If nobody would ever need programming ever again (which seems highly unlikely - and isn't even something we're discussing with doctors, because, y'know, there's always going to have to be someone to administer the cure. And to fix broken bones.), then I'd probably get a job in maintaining/building the fantastic machines that are doing programming for me. Same way that programming didn't go out of style when compilers were invented.
May 31 2010, 3:40 am
Jp wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote:
I never said "every doctor", I believe I posted several times that you don't have to be driven by greed to want people to require your services.

The question is are you one of those people in denial about the world around you? Does the thought of the existence of corruption in this world scare you so much until you simply refuse to believe it? This is reality.

This is where I'm getting 11 years of college from.

The question is, Jp, would you like no one to ever need your programming services?

Notice that 3 of those years are working in a hospital. Also note that it's different in many countries - in Australia, for example, it's more like 6 years at a university followed by an internship at a hospital.

What you've said is that everything is curable, and then implied that the reason why some diseases aren't cured is because doctors aren't interested in killing the golden goose. That implies that every medical researcher and doctor is more interested in profit than helping people (and assumes that they make more of a profit from the chemotherapy situation than the no-chemo situation, which is actually not necessarily the case - sure, you get to sell chemo to someone, but if you cure them, you get to treat them for all the other diseases they'll get because they didn't die).

I certainly acknowledge that some people are a little corrupt. But I don't for a minute believe that the majority of people in almost any position are corrupt. People are people, and on average they're kinda average. In short, no, I don't buy into conspiracy-theory nutbaggery, because I'm at least halfway sane.

If nobody would ever need programming ever again (which seems highly unlikely - and isn't even something we're discussing with doctors, because, y'know, there's always going to have to be someone to administer the cure. And to fix broken bones.), then I'd probably get a job in maintaining/building the fantastic machines that are doing programming for me. Same way that programming didn't go out of style when compilers were invented.

Thats the point I've been trying to make. When the demand for your type of skill goes down, you lose your job and have to find a new one.

I know it will never happen, but lets just suppose everyone in the world becomes healthy and never has a bad health condition. There'd be no need or demand for doctors, and the people who have already been to school to become a doctor has just wasted years of his/her life going to school to become one and now they have to find an entirely new profession. I'm not insane for believing that doctors don't want that to happen.

There are good doctors, and the fact that they want sick people, or people that need surgery, or people that need casts on their broken bones doesn't make them evil. As you mentioned, most doctors are there to help. But guess what? You can't help a person who is healthy because theres nothing wrong with a completely healthy person. They need sick people. They want sick people. How else will they get that satisfaction of helping someone you described?
May 31 2010, 3:52 am
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Thats the point I've been trying to make. When the demand for your type of skill goes down, you lose your job and have to find a new one.

I know it will never happen, but lets just suppose everyone in the world becomes healthy and never has a bad health condition. There'd be no need or demand for doctors, and the people who have already been to school to become a doctor has just wasted years of his/her life going to school to become one and now they have to find an entirely new profession. I'm not insane for believing that doctors don't want that to happen.

There are good doctors, and the fact that they want sick people, or people that need surgery, or people that need casts on their broken bones doesn't make them evil. As you mentioned, most doctors are there to help. But guess what? You can't help a person who is healthy because theres nothing wrong with a completely healthy person. They need sick people. They want sick people. How else will they get that satisfaction of helping someone you described?

I'm not quite following what you're actually claiming here.

Are you claiming that doctors don't want a hypothetical perfect world in which nobody gets diseases or is injured, ever, in any way (including cuts/bruises/broken bones), i.e., claiming something that may be true or not but is irrelevant because it's not only something doctors have no power over, it's something that can't possibly happen?

I was working under the assumption that you were claiming that there exist treatments now that doctors suppress because they want more money (Or that treatments are within arm's length of current medical science but research into the cures isn't as serious as it would otherwise be for similar reasons).

Perhaps you didn't understand my point - in the event of a world in which we have, for example, programs that write programs for us, better than any other human could, there will need to be people who can tell the program-writing programs what to write, and that is a skill that is closely related to the skill of writing programs - i.e., in such a hypothetical world, I've still got an easy job. This has happened before - the first time, the program-writing programs were called 'assemblers'. The second time, they were called 'compilers'.

In the event of a hypothetical world in which all bacterial and viral illnesses are kept at bay via perhaps a sort of external immune system, in which artificial cells are created and trained to destroy harmful bacteria and virii, there will need to be someone who can create and maintain the artificial cells, and by the time this happens the skills required for treating bacterial and viral infections in patients will line up well with the skills required to create and maintain an external immune system - job security.
May 31 2010, 4:56 am
My entire claim was that doctors don't want healthy people, whether its so that they can keep making more and more money, or as you explained: to simply be able to help people.

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