BYOND has quite an interesting community. Like most communities, you can divide it into about 3 general groups. There's the general group of people that make up most of BYOND. There's the trolls. And then there's the "Gurus" or "Oldbies". I'm not an "oldbie" myself, as I've only been hanging around this site for about four years or so, and I don't think I'm a troll really, so I tend to put myself in the general category. You can decide for yourself, but that's really besides the point of this post.
I'm sure you have all heard a phrase from an oldbie that sounds something like this, "This is nothing like the BYOND I fell in love with. It's all a bunch of stupid naruto kiddies and trolls now. There are no good games being made either, everything is a rip these days or just a crappy anime game."
One thing I find interesting about the people that make statements like these is that none of them are actually striving to make quality games for themselves. IainPeregrine is just about the only person, in my opinion, that even has a right to make a statement like that just for the fact that he was actually successful in making probably the first truly successful and fully completed BYOND game that can appeal to gamers even from other communities. That game would be Regressia, of course.
I ask most people that say things like that if they are actually even making any games. No, they aren't even active. Some are active, yes, but not actually -making- anything productive that you or I can see.
I don't believe that the community has gone to the sewers. There are lots of programmers that could make excellent games, whether those games be anime or not. What I see is that this section of the community has gone to simply complaining about the community, and otherwise staying silent. Where are these so-called "Gurus" when the community really needs them? Why would a knight simply stand by and watch the fortress be overrun by peasants with pitchforks, when they themselves have razor-sharp swords? The peasants with the pitchforks are the newbies or "rippers". They have hardly anything at their disposal to program competently with. The knights symbolize the better programmers of the community. They have far more programming abilities. Then could do anything, and yet they watch as the newbies send out crappy game after crappy game.
You say that the bad outweighs the good. Why can't it be the other way around in terms of the game material that's out there? I am capable, and many others are capable as well. The reason I've been spending all of my time experimenting with pixel movement is so that I can start pumping out games with a pixel movement engine. Quality games that actually give something good to the community. I'm not the only one that could, and I'm certainly not the one who could do the best at it.
So whose fault is it anyways? I say that it's the fault of the people in this community that could actually make themselves something for the lower-class section to look up to. If the newbies did a search and found great game after great game, they'd want to be able to push great games out too. Sure, the searches will always be filled with crappy games. The searches are also, however, not filled with any good games.
So why sit here dormant, those that could do some good? I'm working on doing my part to better the community, and I'm putting my voice out there. Are you?
Feb 2 2010, 3:48 pm
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Ganing
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Understandable. I'm a troll, I already know it. But I love to program. As you already know, I'm trying to make a few games to help BYOND. The new Zelda BD game I'm working on for that contest is almost done and is great. I plan on finishing my earlier projects so there is no other way to look but forward. =)
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I have to agree with you. We need our gurus back, even though i haven't been for a member for very long (nearly a year).
I have managed to get some people to help me but not the "Gurus". I have tried my best to learn by myself without them. Where has Dantom gone? Where are all the respected/famous byond members gone to? And Tom isn't good as Dan. If the community doesn't change, BYOND might be gone in a few year with more and more ripped games and trolls. I have to agree with you 100% | |
Err, I have to disagree. All this post is doing is reviving a dead topic. Why should we rely on the old Guru's? If we're just going to be sitting around waiting for our daddy to come back, we will never grow up and become dad's ourself.(Metaphor obviously) Complaining will do nothing, even though I see where you're coming from, and I semi-agree with how you're categorizing the BYOND community, but we can't always rely on others to clean up the messes. Not until it comes to the point where there's no other choice, that is.
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I'd say that's a very warped view of Gurus myself. As for GMD's comment, just ... no.
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Legendary Prince 12 wrote:
Err, I have to disagree. All this post is doing is reviving a dead topic. Why should we rely on the old Guru's? If we're just going to be sitting around waiting for our daddy to come back, we will never grow up and become dad's ourself.(Metaphor obviously) Complaining will do nothing, even though I see where you're coming from, and I semi-agree with how you're categorizing the BYOND community, but we can't always rely on others to clean up the messes. Not until it comes to the point where there's no other choice, that is. Sorry if it came across that I said we should rely on Gurus. Notice I say "So why sit here dormant, those that could do some good?" I never looked up to "Gurus" in the first place. I don't consider myself a Guru at all. | |
Fugsnarf wrote:
Sorry if it came across that I said we should rely on Gurus. Notice I say "So why sit here dormant, those that could do some good?" I never looked up to "Gurus" in the first place. I don't consider myself a Guru at all. No apology needed, I know where you were coming from with it. I was mostly talking to GMD and his awful perspective on things. | |
Legendary Prince 12 wrote:
Err, I have to disagree. All this post is doing is reviving a dead topic. Why should we rely on the old Guru's? If we're just going to be sitting around waiting for our daddy to come back, we will never grow up and become dad's ourself.(Metaphor obviously) Complaining will do nothing, even though I see where you're coming from, and I semi-agree with how you're categorizing the BYOND community, but we can't always rely on others to clean up the messes. Not until it comes to the point where there's no other choice, that is. But when we are little and make little oopsies, our dads usually take the blame. =P Think 'bout that one. | |
Ganing wrote:
But when we are little and make little oopsies, our dads usually take the blame. =P Think 'bout that one. Considering I was referring to developers of 1+ years, uhh.. no. | |
I'm not blaming people for not helping the little newbies. I know lots of good programmers are. The problem I see is that nothing productive and good is actually being made by the people that could make them, yet they yell at Tom and the kids in the community for letting things go out of control with crappy anime games.
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Fugsnarf wrote:
I'm not blaming people for not helping the little newbies. I know lots of good programmers are. The problem I see is that nothing productive and good is actually being made by the people that could make them, yet they yell at Tom and the kids in the community for letting things go out of control with crappy anime games. Would you like to name names? This comments section is going down the toilet eventually, might as well get the first blow in. | |
I blame the fault of multimedia these days.
Kids trying to be all wanna-be gangster, hardcore and badass is making them too full of self-centeredness to realize the world will kill them in a heartbeat outside of their parent's protection. These same kids turn into the Trolls, as well as those wanna-be hotshots that go around telling everyone they can't do this, they can't do that, and their obnoxious typing just so they can "look smarter". IainPeregrine is a good developer, but he surely isn't the first and only to develop a completed project. It's those stupid brats and their wanna-rip everything just to be Owner and laugh at anyone and virtually mock them, because they "did it for the lulz". If you removed leaked source codes, 1/2 the problem of BYOND would be fixed. Those immature beings wouldn't be able to throw crap into the hub and call it "semi-original" or "[insert randomly generated percentage here, preferably over 9,000]% original" or any other false information. They'd actually have to get off of their failed throne and build a game. But, as soon as one rip dies, another one is born. The "oldbies" of BYOND have pretty much grouped themselves in another world separate from the failed community, minus a few here and there. Also, many upon many lack motivation to do anything anymore. "...Some are active, yes, but not actually -making- anything productive that you or I can see." You didn't look hard enough, seriously. You really didn't. Unless you want like, 90% of BYOND to be developers, then yeah you're right. Otherwise, there's a LOT of productive members tinkering here and there within DM or whatever they use. "...If the newbies did a search and found great game after great game, they'd want to be able to push great games out too." Not exactly. Most of BYOND is just Gamers. They don't ever touch, and most of the time never want to touch, DM except to do very little modifications to pre-made icons being passed around BYOND since 5 - 10 years ago. I don't know where you are going with this... There are PLENTY of great games, you just fail to go looking. Don't expect to find a game that's had 100,000,000 hours of Pixel Art work, and 900,000,000,000 hours of programming work. Lower your expectations. This is BYOND. This isn't some super, high-powered engine with an easy-to-use click'n'drag system. Good games require good workers, good amount of time and good effort. Yes, I currently am working on doing my part to better the community... I am tinkering around in DM and I've also been reviving the Harvest Moon: Trinity Ranch community. So, I guess you could say, I'm yea-ing and nay-ing to this post. =\ Sorry, buddy. Now see, those developers that actually do spend most of their effort and time developing, probably took the 20-30 minutes to read this. Not complaining, it's a good motivator if you take it right. | |
You're forgetting that BYOND is further separated into developers and players. Some people only want to play games, and that is their prerogative.
Also, your analogy is rather strange. It seems like the kind of hypothetical situation that would be used to a support a "the masses can overpower the ruling few" kind of message, but you're using it to support the reverse. I agree that sitting around and complaining about a lack of new games is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy, but there's more to it than that. First, the "oldbies" are generally older in actual age. This means college/jobs/ect. I miss my highschool days when I could literally spend 3:00PM-8:00PM each day playing and updating games, but those days are behind me now. It's time for the younger generation to take up the reins. If all of those games were so great, I'd like to see what someone can make with all of the new features that have since been implemented. Also also, as if I couldn't add any more disconnected points to my argument, things always look better viewed through rose-colored glasses: maybe the people saying the old BYOND was better were just generally happier in that period of time. | |
Gamemakingdude wrote:
even though i haven't been for a member for very long (nearly a year). And Tom isn't good as Dan. As far as your concerned Dan is a mystical creacher, Tom had done well to keep BYOND running and to get it where it is today(no matter how people feel about its state) without Dan,(What since basically 2002.) | |
I agree with you totally. I comprehend what your saying as we should all stop complaining about the ripping and do something to prevent our help the cause.
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The problem I see with BYOND (and its a problem not with BYOND itself) is this: to make something good takes time and skill. Yes, even on BYOND, an amazing and easy tool, it takes time and skill. Unfortunately, these attributes tend to be mutually exclusive, especially least in this community. BYOND appeals to the young because they have a lot of free time. They get done with school and play video games, screw around in DM if they want, etc. As we've repeatedly seen, however, the young tend to not have skill.
It's difficult for me to articulate my point. When I started on BYOND almost eight years ago, I had a shitload of time. I played a lot of games, and I "made" a lot too. But they all sucked, like all games on BYOND suck, because there wasn't any skill. Look at the good, quality games on BYOND (this shouldn't take long). You have a very very small set of games here. Iain's Regressia, Silk's Proelium. These are skilled developers... but guess what? They have lives! These quality games take a long time to put together- ask SilkWizard how long the AA/NEStaglia engine has been in development. Iain said Regressia took several years for all the art and programming. With no offense to the developers, these are not extroadinarily complex games- a small team of developers could likely put it all together in a few weeks, *if they had the time*. This is the problem with BYOND. I've orders of magnitude better at programming than I was when I first started Altricosm, or Evasion, or Fallout, or anything else. Now, I don't view those games as a waste, I had a hell of a fun time making them. But now that I'm at the level of skill to actually create some nice, full featured, full length, quality games, I'm taking 20cr semesters while working several part time jobs and conducting undergraduate research at a private univeristy. I don't have time for BYOND! I'm not sure if my meaning is properly coming through here. I don't see a problem with Anime (hey, they're having fun right?) because its seperated, I don't deal with it. Anime, rips, and the community itself are not the problem with BYOND- human nature is. While the current state of affairs only furthers the appeal to younger people, I don't think you can expect much more. TL;DR - Young people have time and ambition, but are unskilled. Old people have the ability to make a great BYOND game, but are old and married and working. | |
But then again, ripping has gotten to be such a huge problem, has it already gotten too large to control? Indeed, a new rip is probably created each day. The saying of "Creating original games, will help further more original games" is complete BS. I created a Naruto game with a ripped source because I liked Naruto, and wanted to own something Naruto. Really the only thing we can do, is hope that something like the old unpublished games comes back, and that games automatically go there first before being evaluated to go into an official BYOND guild. I feel that would have a good effect. It would keep rips away from the main crowd. But everyone seems to have their own idea on how rips should be dealt with. I personally think it's too late.
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Gamemakingdude wrote:
And Tom isn't good as Dan. If the community doesn't change, BYOND might be gone in a few year with more and more ripped games and trolls. It only took to the 2nd comment to make a completely fucking stupid remark from someone who has no idea what they're talking about. | |
Ganing wrote:
But then again, ripping has gotten to be such a huge problem, has it already gotten too large to control? Indeed, a new rip is probably created each day. The saying of "Creating original games, will help further more original games" is complete BS. I created a Naruto game with a ripped source because I liked Naruto, and wanted to own something Naruto. Really the only thing we can do, is hope that something like the old unpublished games comes back, and that games automatically go there first before being evaluated to go into an official BYOND guild. I feel that would have a good effect. It would keep rips away from the main crowd. But everyone seems to have their own idea on how rips should be dealt with. I personally think it's too late. I don't see this as an issue. | |
@Maximus_Alex2003: IainPeregrine isn't the first to publish a completed game by any means. However, his game is truly probably the first game of true excellence on BYOND that could actually appeal to someone from another gaming community.
@Yut Put: Just do a search on Yoyogames. You'll find more than plenty of garbage games. There's always going to be lots of those, and I don't imagine a community without them. The problem I see is that there -are- no good games out there to begin with. Regressia was the only example I could think of that would even remotely attract an outside audience. | |