Action RPG Framework

I was actually thinking just the other day, how time consuming and time wasting it can be to have to start a project from complete scratch. On top of that, I sort of feel that there's alot of things that could be handled that simply aren't. Instead there seems to be a sort of ideal of "search and find it" and "there's a wealth of knowledge already here.. so search and find it"

Which basically equates into *use up more time looking for something in past posts/resources,etc.*

Where as a few game-dev packages I've worked with in the past allow you to choose which frameworks and resources you want to load into a new project from the beginning.

This works very well, and limits the amount of "scratch work" one has to do.In all I find it odd that this feature isn't really implemented in byond, since it's a very versatile language.

It just seems like because there's so much you can do with it, that it would make sense to be able to add pre- made code and functions instead of having to search tons of libs and demos just to get the same things.

I've got a 60 day forum ban so I had to post it somewhere else.

How'd you manage that??

Hmm, personally I think if you pay for a membership you should have some right to complain.

That's just my opinion though. *shrugs*

Forum_account wrote:

There could also be options to include different icon packs. Instead of making an "icon pack" that's simply a DM project with lots of .dmi files in it, users could develop icon packs for frameworks. You can select an icon pack to use when creating a new environment. By having a few options (ex: fantasy, space/sci-fi, modern, etc.) people can pick something that suits their game idea and get right into development.

Exactly what I was trying to say, only better explained.

Tom wrote:

Forum_account has an extremely condescending way of talking down to people (not just us) where he acts like an expert and ignores other explanations while touting his own ad nauseum. I warned him about this multiple times, including just recently, and he crossed the line yet again, leading to a lengthy ban over something that normally I'd overlook. It may be reduced if he behaves well, although probably not. It is a shame because, like Falacy before him, he does make excellent contributions to BYOND. I simply will not be disrespected (nor tolerate the disrespect of other people who work very hard on this) further on my own site though.

I can understand that both Forum_Account and Falacy can be offensive, however, with all things considered, they may have the best view of BYOND than any of us.

They are probably some of the best versed users of BYOND but they're far enough away from the project to see it's flaws or shortcomings.

I don't mean to sound rude, but it's entirely possible that you and the dev-team are too close to the project to see it clearly, and because of that, you're becoming offended when someone gives their honest input on the state of BYOND.

Personally, I think development on BYOND is moving quickly, but in the wrong direction. One of the main staples of BYOND is: It's easy to use. making it easier by adding features like the one Forum_Account is suggesting will draw more developers in and result in more games being created (as to the quality of these games I cannot say, but the easier it is to make a game the less likely people are to rip off other games).

Currently a lot of the new features make some of the detailed work of making a game easier, namely the new tab system and the ability to close cloned windows, however they don't do much at all to draw in new devs.

Like I said, progress is moving well and the features are very nice and very much appreciated, but focusing on details can cause you to lose sight of the big picture.

That's just how I see it though.

I see what you mean by advertising through games like NEStalgia and Eternia, unfortunately I fear it's possible that, although the games do bring in potential members, the lack of certain development features in BYOND is keeping them from sticking around. Native pixel movement was a huge boost to BYONDs namesake and I'd personally just like to see more of that.

However, I respect your ideals and will not continue to further prod at this subject.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have better development resources first so that those who are here now can make better quality games, which will then have the potential to become successful. Instead of leaving things how they are now, and hoping the people who are here now will make a hit game without better material to do so? I mean that just sounds backwards to me.

Tom wrote:

Well, I personally think we have plenty of good development resources right now and that adding easier access, while helpful, wouldn't do a great deal because our existing user base is stagnant. What we personally need is to bring in some money-- this is not something users really think about when making suggestions because they look at BYOND as a free product rather than as a business. To me, we have the games (and the toolkit to make the games) to bring in money right now and need to do things to encourage exposure. Some people may not believe that, and that's perfectly fair, but it's what I'm banking on.

Honestly, I think over ten years ago even a game like Lexiconomy could have gotten 100K downloads if given the proper exposure, and that was without any GUI at all. BYOND has always been more about bringing good game ideas to life than the kind of polish often requested on this forum, and while I agree that the latter is important, it doesn't preclude the former from being successful in its own right.

Awesome thoughts. Personally when I started making a few games of my own on this I really didn't even consider ground that's already been covered. Tbh I feel like good , original games are also a part of showcasing what is possible with Byond,(For instance Epic, Blood Brothers, Spirit Age, NesTalgia, and a few others) which is why I particularly chose a genre on byond that is being overdone "ninja games"(also because it would be my first Byond project I see through to completion and therefore good practice for future projects).

My original thought was to make a great, original ninja themed game full of concepts and ideas that I didn't really see anywhere else(byond or otherwise). I think a few good standout games would really help in getting exposure but most people who frequent the site are also sort of fixed in the state of what the normal is so they don't really bother to think outside the box. This is apparent in graphics as well as gameplay of many games. There's a lot of room for success in the fact that most games being developed simply want to be "my own personal game" so just by being different you can gain a lot of positive feedback. Case in point, I don't really feel the project I work on is unique or special, but i find most people that play it are pleasantly surprised and can't wait until I show more of it- simply because I took a different approach to development.

I tend to ramble tho, back to what I was going to say :

Aside from that, I know that it's been mentioned before but a standalone player for the games present on byond already-- in other words not actually using Dream Maker or hosting to play a game, but just clicking an EXE file or running a program that plays the game) might benefit as well.


The approach Unity takes with it, is that you download their software, then you have the option to make your project into various types one of which is a file and folder that compresses the game and allows you to share it with others. Others don't have to download unity, but they definitely know what engine is responsible for development.

Of course upon starting up the game, their name and logo flashes so it's exposure. On top of that, perhaps you could include the functionality to choose open servers for the game that's being played -- if the person has installed Dream Seeker(or the entire package) to ensure that the byond software is getting increased distribution as well.

And also forcing people to visit the site to download games developed with byond(a feature that could be included with a membership should you provide a SAP in the future) would also increase potential exposure.

Finally I mentioned this in a seperate post, but when it comes to finances, I believe people are more accepting of spending money on online games. For instance games like mafia wars and farmville gross lots of money.

I think a good way to generate more income would be to have the option for people to purchase some type of universal credits optional to their byond membership.

This universal credit could be sold for, let's say 2 times the value of a dollar.
100 credits would be equivalent to 2 USD(this is a high number to me but I'm just using it to explain my point more thoroughly.)

Now that the player has a balance of credits attached to their profile/ byond key, they can then turn right around and use this money in any of the games that have features requiring the player to spend credits to obtain them. Of course this could be totally up to the player if it's actually worth it.

But when the player spends credits, half of the amount could go to the creator of the game, which they could use themselves- or perhaps cash out or transfer to other players for other services like pixel art, programming,etc.

Either way money has been made, even more so if this idea is limited to people who only have a membership being able to charge universal credits in their games.

If it goes over well, you could decrease the percentage to 30% and allow the users to cash out, at which point your money has already been made. Many ways to go with this.

Just some thoughts that popped into my head upon reading these past few posts.

FA: While I really love the frameworks you have developed and think they are invaluable resources, what makes you think that someone who won't bother to look through the framework libs (such as your excellent Sidescroller lib) and the included demos would ever make any kind of meaningful progress on a project?

I think the idea of a wizard is neat, but kind of low priority. The existing system isn't exactly hard to use - the biggest obstacle is filtering the noise. I foresee that such a system would just make it a bit easier for people to swap out the Mega Man graphics for some other ripped icons or terrible diaper men and call it a new Naruto/DBZ/whatever game.

IMHO quality contributions like FA's libs and continuing developments and dedication to a stable, versatile platform by the staff is what attracts real talent. Quality games, of course attract more attention. To that end, I *really* hate to see friction between the two things that are the wheels that actually keep BYOND as a platform moving forward. Especially since when it seems to be the result of good intentions poorly expressed and residual frustrations. :-(

Unfortunately at the end of the day, real talent is rare and imitators common. It's often hard to attract talented devs because they are busy developing things. Most game production platforms produce a bare minimum of successful games- off hand I can think of less than a dozen for all of the BYOND, GameMakers, RPGMakers, etc. combined. OTOH look at a developer like PopCap that produces a bunch of shiney remakes of traditional computer games and every once and a while gets a good developer or genuinely good title (Bejeweled and Plants vs. Zombies for example). Now, such a game could have been made on several of the previously mentioned platforms, which have many amateur developers. But they weren't. And neither are a thousand other indie games. For every Spelunky, there are a trillion garbage games.

Realistically, I think BYOND is going to have to go a route similar to GameMaker if they are to have any hope of making money in the near future. A premium for "extras". I commend Tom for the dedication to a totally free program and know the cacophony of the 14 year olds that bemoan any attempt to charge for work (look at the old member blogs), but ad revenues are tiny and it is not realistic to expect someone to continue to pour work into a project without any realistic chance of at least some sort of compensation. If people actually value the product, they will contribute. If they do not, they didn't value it anyway. People who are used to everyone doing something for them (IE laundry, cooking, etc.) probably don't get this. People who have to work for a living probably do. Probably getting too OT here, so I will just end there.

Bravo1 wrote:

Personally, I think development on BYOND is moving quickly, but in the wrong direction.

It's a little bit of both.

The rule of thumb is that a single full-time developer will average 10 lines of code per day when you factor in the time spent on requirements, design, implementation, integration, testing, debugging, and documentation. BYOND is informal and doesn't have all of those steps, so the staff should easily average a combined 50-60 lines of code per day. This means that features like maptext should have been knocked out (implemented, tested, *and* debugged) in a week or less but end up dragging on for months.

All I can figure is that BYOND's code just isn't that easy to work with. It's an old project with developers who have come and gone. It also doesn't help that most of the work that's done is bug fixes and minor enhancements - those aren't exactly fun things to work on. There are brief periods of time where the staff works effectively. Pixel movement was implemented quickly and there are weeks where many bugs are closed, but then there are also month-long stretches where nothing is going on.

BYOND's progress doesn't seem to motivate the staff. It seems like they're now just hoping that someone will come along and make a popular game with BYOND. If they spent their time more wisely they could accomplish more with less effort and have more motivation (seriously, watch some of those shows about restaurants, it's exactly like this - the people on those shows would dread going to work but after a few simple changes are made, they're excited about working again).

Jmurph wrote:

FA: While I really love the frameworks you have developed and think they are invaluable resources, what makes you think that someone who won't bother to look through the framework libs (such as your excellent Sidescroller lib) and the included demos would ever make any kind of meaningful progress on a project?

People don't consider using these kinds of resources because they've decided that's not how you make a game. People didn't come to BYOND thinking that ripping anime games is how you make games, that's an idea they got after coming to BYOND. If BYOND wants to be an easy-to-use game development program and attract novices, it has to take some of the burden of guiding them in the right direction otherwise you'll end up with exactly what BYOND ended up with.

I think the idea of a wizard is neat, but kind of low priority. The existing system isn't exactly hard to use - the biggest obstacle is filtering the noise.

BYOND looks easy to use on the surface but really, it's only easy to create a clunky game with choppy movement and verb/stat panels. The Action RPG Framework uses about 7,000 lines of code to create a foundation that lets you more easily make a game with nicer movement, controls, and interface. It's easy to use BYOND to make something but to make a decent, polished game is more difficult than most users can handle.

I foresee that such a system would just make it a bit easier for people to swap out the Mega Man graphics for some other ripped icons or terrible diaper men and call it a new Naruto/DBZ/whatever game.

Some people would do that but some people wouldn't. Currently, making a base icon and a map is considered an accomplishment. With frameworks, anyone will be able to easily accomplish a lot more than that. This'll let the staff raise the bar. There'd be no reason to tolerate people posting non-stop about their non-games. When you can make a playable game in 15 minutes, everyone should be posting about playable games. Instead of focusing on base icons people will have to focus on gameplay and the people who don't actually have game ideas will naturally be filtered out.