2D is perfectly challenging enough, the problem is that both the IDE and the language sucks and there are no attempts to resolve that by the powers that be.
Instead the focus is on a Flash client. Flash may not even be prevalent anymore by the time that client is feasible enough for me.
With the recent changes I wouldn't say that the IDE sucks.
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JBoer wrote:
2D is perfectly challenging enough, the problem is that both the IDE and the language sucks and there are no attempts to resolve that by the powers that be. Then go use something else. Seriously. No one is forcing you to use our crappy language and IDE. Just GTFO if it's such a hassle. I'm going to be deleting further anti-BYOND BS on this site. It's completely disrespectful and I expect better, even from your entitled generation. | |
Darker Legends wrote:
With the recent changes I wouldn't say that the IDE sucks. The only IDE features that I use often that Byond doesn't have is Autocomplete (I don't like flipping back to header files to find exactly what I named a function I wrote weeks/months ago) and dual screen support. And I really wouldn't expect those to be a priority, since it's better for Byond to be able to branch out and become more desirable for big projects then spend lots of time making changes that few people will use. JBoer wrote: 2D is perfectly challenging enough, the problem is that both the IDE and the language sucks and there are no attempts to resolve that by the powers that be. There's nothing wrong with the language at all. The tradeoffs that are made so that DM is more beginner friendly might be restrictive to someone with years of experience, but in that case, why not use another language that fits your project better? | |
Tom wrote:
Then go use something else. Seriously. No one is forcing you to use our crappy language and IDE. Just GTFO if it's such a hassle. IMHO you're burying your head in the sand and pretending that my issues don't matter at all. I've posted these issues because I would like to see them resolved, but instead of marking them as something other than "Open" so I know that it has been looked at you're raging about it. I'm currently working on a SS13 modification, which is a game written with this language. Porting that entire game over to another language isn't feasible to do for us in the same way that introducing 3D to BYOND isn't feasible to you. But I'm not asking you to introduce 3D into BYOND. Nor am I asking you to implement the requests I've made so far, even though some of them are fair and I am a paying member. All I'm asking for is a way for us -- the BYOND developers, the ones you should be catering to the most -- to be able to see what you guys are working on. A projected timeline of changes, so we can at least have a guesstimate on certain features. I'm going to be deleting further anti-BYOND BS on this site. If you consider my posts "anti-BYOND BS" then you must not use other languages very much. The Dream Maker IDE is nothing compared to other IDE's, like Eclipse for instance. The language is missing features that a lot of common languages have, but instead of biting the bullet you guys are keeping your distance from the language itself out of fear of breaking something, even though there's already a bunch of stuff that's broken already. It's completely disrespectful and I expect better, Be glad you're not running a BYOND game then. You can find much worse there. even from your entitled generation. Your product is aimed at my generation. Do you honestly think that projects led by 15 year olds are going to take off? I'm used to better, but I stick around because despite the flaws I'm pointing out BYOND is still very nifty. I'm just disappointed that my issues are being ignored and I have no insight into the future of BYOND because you vehemently believe in keeping a "don't ask don't tell" policy. After you made it clear that Dream Maker wasn't going to receive anything like a complete overhaul I started working on this Eclipse plug-in. I hate the fact that I'm never going to get any help with it from BYOND Staff even though they have the design specifications I'd need to build my own map editor/skin editor/icon editor. You just demotivated me from working on that project, since I'm expecting to be banned any time now because I went "too far" or something. Because I replied to a post titled "Where BYOND went wrong" with my own opinion on why I think this place is going to hell. If there's anything I'm guilty of it's caring too much about this. I paid for a couple of gift memberships and other BYOND-related stuff (like domain names and servers). I even gave you access to one of my servers so you could fix a bug, one which caused BYOND servers to crash and wasn't caught by any error messages I could do anything with. What do I get in return? I get to see a bunch of mistakes being made (the release of the new website, the "obviously-untested" bugs that pop up after every release), and when I ask any question related to BYOND development I'm ignored unless it's part of some arbitrary list of things that are going to be worked on this <s>week</s> month. I find bugs that shouldn't be there. I get a server that freezes up randomly, and even though world.loop_checks=1 the loop isn't being stopped. No log messages. No explanation. Most of the time when you encounter a bug you'll have something to go on. An error message or exception. At least a stack trace that points to where in your code the bug is happening. I've had a couple of bugs which had no error messages. No explanations whatsoever for them occurring, and I had to find out by myself through trial and error, using a compiler that took 1-2 minutes between compilations and wasn't allowing me to change anything in the interim because someone arbitrarily decided the compilation process would be running on the same thread as the GUI. But you're right. I do feel entitled to something more. But after 6 years, who wouldn't be feeling the same way? EDIT: By the way, I wrote this post in time I should be doing other stuff. | |
JBoer wrote:
I'm currently working on a SS13 modification, which is a game written with this language. Porting that entire game over to another language isn't feasible to do for us in the same way that introducing 3D to BYOND isn't feasible to you. Making SS13 in Unity or something similar wouldn't even compare to building a language that handles 3D games and yet is as easy to learn as byond. JBoer wrote: If you consider my posts "anti-BYOND BS" then you must not use other languages very much. The Dream Maker IDE is nothing compared to other IDE's, like Eclipse for instance. The language is missing features that a lot of common languages have, but instead of biting the bullet you guys are keeping your distance from the language itself out of fear of breaking something, even though there's already a bunch of stuff that's broken already. Yes, I'm sure Eclipse having more features than DM is because Tom is lazy, and not because the Eclipse foundation has a 4 million dollar annual budget. | |
What you and so many others don't get is that we are working as hard as we can given limited time and an extremely limited budget. Everyone has their own idea for what BYOND needs and if we don't get to your particular requests, it's not because we're lazy or incompetent or don't like you-- it's just that we have to prioritize what we think is best. And I'll even make the occasional exception, eg the recent foray into improveing the IDE a bit even though I think it's a huge waste of time.
Crying because a few things break when we do a software or website update doesn't help anyone. This is how we test-- by doing releases off the pager-- because I can't afford a testing team. It's nice that your expectations are so high but you have to be realistic too. If BYOND is an unpleasant experience or you don't respect the development pace or progress, then there is a really simple solution: don't use it. If porting your existing BYOND project to a better language isn't feasible, then your choice is to give up that project or stick with BYOND and its flaws (which may include the incompetent development team). Complaining isn't an option and I'm not going to tolerate it anymore. | |
Techgamer wrote:
Making SS13 in Unity or something similar wouldn't even compare to building a language that handles 3D games and yet is as easy to learn as byond. It's still rewriting the game in another language. That takes more time than making modifications and slowly improving it. JBoer wrote: I have a zero dollar budget and my time is very limited, and I managed to make an Eclipse plug-in that allows you to create BYOND projects, compile games (by building the project) and has a code editor with BYOND's syntax highlighting (sans one minor issue) and has the potential to support intellisense. This is because by using a project like Eclipse which is already out there I can avoid doing a lot of work. It's the same reason I'm still using BYOND despite my comments about the language. With a limited budget and only one person working full-time creating an Eclipse plug-in would be better than improving the existing IDE as you'll be able to benefit from the existing functionality Eclipse has to offer. Why hasn't that been considered? AFAIK you can release the plug-in and it would make a lot of people happy. If it has been considered, then why don't I know about it? Why am I working on a project that's doomed to fail from the start? Why should I take the chance? It's my time, too. And unlike Tom (who can still make loads of money from this) my only benefit seems to be the happy feeling I'd get from contributing for once. I'm sorry if I've been sounding rude lately. But I don't like working an entire day in Java/Eclipse to come back to Dream Maker and its inability to summon up a file with Ctrl+Shift+R, code completion, and even to compile on a separate thread so the entire program doesn't hang. I've had many times where I hit Ctrl+K to compile and then realized I had to change something. But instead of changing it while the compilation was running I had to wait for the compiler first. I can live with it for now, and I do appreciate the changes that have been made to Dream Maker so far. It just seems to me -- and perhaps I am too young to realize but I'm doubting that given my experiences with C/C++ so far -- that changes like "run the compiler in a separate thread" isn't that hard. From my experiences building stuff in my spare time I'd think that someone working full-time would be able to get features like that in a day or two (provided it's an 8 hour working day). | |
Something like "run the compiler in a separate thread" is a feature we could do and it would probably take a day (multithreading isn't that hard but our code makes assumptions about interaction with the IDE so those would have to be tested). The problem is, we have hundreds of things like this, so when we don't do YOUR request you can't take it as a personal slight.
You have to understand that this is a HUGE project. We have to maintain a very complicated piece of software, a very complicated website, an unappreciative community, and three servers (with no IT staff). I would love to work more on it and hire more people, but we make almost no money and I haven't had an income from this in over a year. So I'm not going to apologize for doing the best we can. Our recent priorities have been to try to provide tools (the standalone and the flash) that will bring more exposure to games here, because we can derive income from that and hopefully start to make some money we can pour back into the project. Until that happens, you will probably have to wait on a bunch of features that affect very few people. | |
It might not be that it's "hard", it's that it's not a priority right now, and Tom doesn't view the IDE as such a huge deal. You've been involved in the development of many games, and I've seen you get frustrated with players that treat you the same way that you're treating Tom right now. I'd get frustrated too.
What it comes down to is that it's Tom's project, and he knows what he wants to work on. If he doesn't want to work on the IDE, then he doesn't have to work on the IDE. There's nothing wrong with that. This is the benefit of being self-employed. You get to choose. People are always crapping on about how much they want to help develop BYOND and BYOND won't let them, but the IDE is pretty well the one big thing that could be taken over by a third-party. The DMI editor, Map maker, dm.exe integration: all is quite feasible for someone to implement on their own. I'm sure that if one of these projects actually got decent enough for a layperson to use, Tom might consider replacing the BYOND IDE with it. So keep working on your plugin (is it possible for an Eclipse plugin to have stuff like a DMI editor and map editor?), and try to actually finish it. Edit: Aww Tom already replied. | |
Tom wrote:
The problem is, we have hundreds of things like this, so when we don't do YOUR request you can't take it as a personal slight. The thing is that I'm not the only one who would like to have the compilation process running in a separate thread. If implemented a lot of people are probably going to be very grateful for it, albeit silently as they don't spend much time on this forum. | |
Murrawhip wrote:
(is it possible for an Eclipse plugin to have stuff like a DMI editor and map editor?) AFAIK yes, it's possible. Instead of the code editor you'd have a separate editor. I think it's already possible to modify images in the editor screen. I would like some help with the Eclipse plug-in project, though I'm not sure where I can advertise that since nobody around here seems to care about such projects. :( | |
Tom wrote:
We have to maintain a very complicated piece of software, a very complicated website, an unappreciative community, and three servers (with no IT staff). Wasn't Mike H the IT staff? Also, clear solution: Find Dan. Tell him to forget his wife and kid. BYOND is clearly more important than the Large Hadron Collider's Condor software stuff. | |
I see two sides to this.
On one hand, people like JBoer support what BYOND is, and might seem a little too eager to improve BYOND. On the other hand, Tom seems to be acting like he's a one man show here. "If you don't like the show, just leave". There's merit to both sides of the argument. Tom is trying very hard to keep this website going strong, and that's a tough job. It's not really making profit (or so we are to believe) and he relies on volunteers to handle most of the inner workings of the website. But to you Tom, I want to say this. You're not a one man show and I don't say that because LummoxJR is helping you. Most of the people in this thread really like BYOND's mission of getting this generation into programming. They've bought membership after membership doing their part to help support the site. Please don't alienate the people that support you, or you really will find this to be a website full of rippers. I suppose you can always find new developers but you can't really replace people as in who these people are. You seem to be rather stressed about all this talk that might be considered putting DM down, but really people just want to bring DM up. | |
It would help if people would use more tact.
Comments like these: It's not really making profit (or so we are to believe) both the IDE and the language sucks and there are no attempts to resolve that by the powers that be. ...are unnecessary, and only serve to alienate Tom from the community. And don't call it "tough love"--you're not his mom. | |
Tom wrote:
You have to understand that this is a HUGE project. We have to maintain a very complicated piece of software, a very complicated website, an unappreciative community, and three servers (with no IT staff). I would love to work more on it and hire more people, but we make almost no money and I haven't had an income from this in over a year. So I'm not going to apologize for doing the best we can. Nadrew should be able to help with the "no IT staff" part here for sure? Honestly the community can help you have to trust people ... hell I will even put my hand up for this as a volunteer.. I wouldn't want money anyway I have a full time job that pays well I have BYONDPanel that sucks away my money, So I have nothing to lose... TRUSTing the community may be scaring but BYOND does has a lot of smart and honest people .. tap in to that resource or end up | |
I never said we were a one-man show. But those duties do fall on just two of us, and bringing volunteers in (which we've done in the past) presents its own problems (mainly that volunteers come and go and it is really hard to work with that given that these projects are long-term).
To the contrary, I think the real power of BYOND is in its users and that's why I am always imploring people who want to help to make and promote their games. Having successful games is the only way we will ever be a successful platform. If you don't think the existing software can be used to make a successful game, then I suggest leaving because it's just naive to think it will change much in the short-term. And I'd prefer people to leave than to complain. | |
People come and go .. Just like a normal business .. The people who want to stay will...
If you need me you know my email address. | |
JBoer wrote:
I would like some help with the Eclipse plug-in project, though I'm not sure where I can advertise that since nobody around here seems to care about such projects. :( I'm sorry you feel that way, and I'm fairly certain that isn't the case. I find this thread exemplary, in that it demonstrates what is basically a problem in expectations and communication. If Tom were never anywhere to be seen, and never responded to user features, users would instead debate amongst themselves on how to improve the existing suite. But because he is, and in fact spends a fairly gracious amount of time reading user feedback (Because he's one of those rare breeds that does in fact care), its oftentimes easier to request a feature. And people requesting features that Tom personally reads, expect him to realize how important the given feature is. This isn't to say that feature requests are 'invalid' or wrong, I've made quite a few myself over the past 11 years. And the feature may be entirely valid. But it stops being productive, when it goes beyond a feature request, over to, 'BUT THIS IS IMPORTANT! STOP DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND DO MY THING!'. The trick is not to try and manage Tom's product for him, because you're not going to anyway, and its just stepping on toes and wasting time ;) On the flip side, its perfectly reasonable for Tom to expect the users to respect the fact that yelling about a feature isn't going to help. Albeit a bit of a useless expectation on the Internet, unfortunately. | |
As odd is it might sound, I think the only way to make byond more attractive for big, polished games, is for there to be more success stories beyond "Nestalgia is doing ok".