It's like talking to a brick wall...

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Oct 2 2009, 1:40 am
Try cutting out as many levels as you possible could and arranging all the the abilities into tiered tech trees.

If DotA can work with just 10 levels, so can your game.
Oct 2 2009, 2:05 am
SuperAntx wrote:
Try cutting out as many levels as you possible could and arranging all the the abilities into tiered tech trees.

If DotA can work with just 10 levels, so can your game.

DOTA actually has 25 levels. Not only that, but this game was heavily based on games like DOTA and HON.
The game is very similar to DOTA, and designed to be played in a similar way. But to someone who does not know what DOTA is, they do not know the way the game is intended to play.

I am trying to adjust the game so that people are more likely to play as intended, but that is the problem. People are objecting to even the smallest of changes I am making.
As far as I am concerned, the changes I am making are for the better (they include making grinding harder, and less rewarding, and speeding up certain parts of the game which use to drag on), and I just cannot understand why people would even object to these changes, and apparently they also cannot give a good reason for it.
Oct 2 2009, 2:50 am
25 levels is a lot for a game which doesn't save character progress. I really think you should try to compress the entire experience. Scale back the influence character levels/stats have and place more importance on tech trees and talent builds.

40 classes is also a really absurd amount. You cannot possibly expect anyone to just jump into the game, read a lengthy help file, and then play a very specific way you intended them to play. Nobody is expected to do that on a mainstream game, BYONDers shouldn't be expected to either. Cut down on the class count and fold them into tech tree abilities and talent builds.
Oct 2 2009, 3:26 am
25 levels might seem like a lot. But you can go from 1 to 25 in like... An hour, if you play the game properly.

As for the class count. It is high for a reason. Variety. Most classes are unique, and no two class is exactly the same.

As for your suggestion of cutting classes down. Here is a fun little fact.
DOTA gets millions of players a month, it has something like 96 classes, each with a small selection of abilities.
Demigod, a DOTA clone, cut the number of classes down to 8, but each class had various tech trees as you suggested. Demigod was a huge flop.

I'd say the huge class variety is one of the major draws to DOTA, it allows for a large variety of different tactics during the game based on what classes are picked.

Besides, cutting down the number of classes, and combining their skills is basically the same as having half a dozen of one, and six of the other.
It would not really be changing anything, just moving stuff around.
Oct 2 2009, 4:40 am
An hour or two is a huge amount of time to invest into a single round. Perhaps your players are becoming too attached to their characters and would rather level them up instead of finishing the round, losing them forever.

If you don't want people to sit and grind you shouldn't just nerf everything into oblivion. Even though it's harder to grind people will do it anyway and add another hour to the timer. Instead, you should eliminate the need to grind at all. You do this by shortening the amount of time it takes to level and reducing the overall time it takes to complete a round.

How about cutting down the entire game into 15-20 minute sessions? 20 minutes is still fairly long in a round-based game, but with an RPG element it's just about right. Don't let players become attached to their throw-away characters and encourage them to finish the round so they may start another one.


There are only so many names for a fireball, but no matter how different they are, they're still all fireballs. The only way to create 40 classes with unique abilities is to have a lot of similar ones. I wasn't suggesting to just eliminate all your individual fireballs, I was saying fold them all into one generic fireball with tons of customizations.

It's less confusing, more manageable, easier to jump into, and the only sacrifice you make is that bullet point on the hub page saying how many classes there are. Go for quality, not quantity.
Oct 2 2009, 9:12 am
What can I say, you gave them an RPG level, class and skill structure and called it an action/strategy game. I wouldn't even know where to begin in terms of forming a strategy out of that, nor can I group up with friends (aside from "pick good guys or bad guys") to execute a strategy.
Oct 2 2009, 12:30 pm
SuperAntx wrote:
An hour or two is a huge amount of time to invest into a single round. Perhaps your players are becoming too attached to their characters and would rather level them up instead of finishing the round, losing them forever.

I don't think an hour is that long, but I can maybe shorten the duration of a game some more.

If you don't want people to sit and grind you shouldn't just nerf everything into oblivion. Even though it's harder to grind people will do it anyway and add another hour to the timer. Instead, you should eliminate the need to grind at all. You do this by shortening the amount of time it takes to level and reducing the overall time it takes to complete a round.

I have already done this a lot.
I have made it so exp gained from players is higher, making it more attractive to kill players (the goal of the game). Also, exp from killing players is shared out among the team. The killer gets the most, people who helped get some, anyone else gets a small amount.
Exp from other sources is much lower, and at a certain point, it should become much too slow to be worth the effort to grind. The amount of time it would take to level up from 20-25 by not killing players would under extremely optimal condiitons take, no less than 40 minutes to do.
But that assumes players kill every source of exp and they kill it as fast as possible, I'd say a more realistic time frame is 70 or so minutes.


There are only so many names for a fireball, but no matter how different they are, they're still all fireballs. The only way to create 40 classes with unique abilities is to have a lot of similar ones. I wasn't suggesting to just eliminate all your individual fireballs, I was saying fold them all into one generic fireball with tons of customizations.

It's less confusing, more manageable, easier to jump into, and the only sacrifice you make is that bullet point on the hub page saying how many classes there are. Go for quality, not quantity.

To be fair. There is actually a very small number of skills that are duplicates of others. And an equally small number of skills that are similar to others.
But even similar skills have widely different uses in the actual game.
An example, one class has two damage over time effects. They both deal damage over a similar period of time.
One however also cuts any healing the effected person takes in half. The other deals damage based on their natural Hp regeneration rate (which normally is low, but if boosted by abilities is very strong).

In general, all classes are designed with a theme in mind, and there abilities reflect that theme. Some classes have similar roles, but different methods of doing it.
On paper there abilities may look similar, but in the actual game they are played, and used in very different ways.

What can I say, you gave them an RPG level, class and skill structure and called it an action/strategy game. I wouldn't even know where to begin in terms of forming a strategy out of that, nor can I group up with friends (aside from "pick good guys or bad guys") to execute a strategy.

The strategy in the game includes various elements.
Picking a right class can turn the game around. If the enemy team has a lot of spellcasters, and you pick a Mage Killer, you put yourself at an advantage.
Another thing is picking the right skills, and knowing when best to pick them. If you are fighting against a lot of defensive characters, that defence reducing skill may very well be a good idea to get.
Then there is using your abilities wisely. On class has the ability to deal devastating damage to an area, but the downside is that area is small, and people can simply walk out of the way. Combine that with a class that can stun them, and now you have a fairly devastating combo.

These are some of the more simple examples, but you get the idea.

Also, I don't know what else you'd need to group up with your friends.
You are on the same team, can talk to them and only them, you can see them, and following them is easy.
If you have suggestions on what more could be done to make teamwork easier, then by all means, suggest away!
Oct 2 2009, 12:42 pm
why did you add the ability to boost your stats by mindlessly grinding if that's the exact opposite of how you want your game to be played?

Because it is a vital gameplay element. The game was designed in a specific way, and the ability to level up was part of that design.
Additionally, there is no reason the game cannot be played the way I intended while still allowing players to become stronger as they play.

why is it a "vital gameplay element"? all it does is provide a crutch for players to lean on instead of using strategy.

heck, while we're at it, we should yell at scream at zeta players-- they shouldn't just keep hitting that pbag to raise their powerlevel by another billion. what they SHOULD do is use strategy by working with others and using effective counters against attacks (such as using lots of knockback/keep-away attacks vs opponents with strong melee). but what do they do? they just keep hitting that pbag instead. HOW DARE THEY!
Oct 2 2009, 12:47 pm
Strategy does not require improved stats. A true strategy game should have all players equal - the better strategist wins.
Oct 2 2009, 1:00 pm
Zaole wrote:
why did you add the ability to boost your stats by mindlessly grinding if that's the exact opposite of how you want your game to be played?

Because it is a vital gameplay element. The game was designed in a specific way, and the ability to level up was part of that design.
Additionally, there is no reason the game cannot be played the way I intended while still allowing players to become stronger as they play.

why is it a "vital gameplay element"? all it does is provide a crutch for players to lean on instead of using strategy.

The game was designed with it in mind is why.
Removing it is effectively the same as remaking the entire game.

There is no reason why it is impossible to have both stat growth and strategy, it's not like they are mutually exclusive features in a game (ever heard of the stratergy RPG genre?).

If anything, in this game, the better player will win, even if they are statistically inferior to the other player. (Unless the difference is extreme, which should not happen in a normal match)

Strategy does not require improved stats. A true strategy game should have all players equal - the better strategist wins.

But it is not a true strategy game. It is an action game, that is suppose to put an emphasis on making use of strategy to win.
You are suppose to think about what you do, not just pick up the biggest gun and run around gunning down anything that moves.
Oct 3 2009, 11:24 am
I'd like to add, being one of the biggest complaining players and all >.>

Theres much strategy to use in this game. Just earlier I was getting peeved about some Hulk grabbing me and throwing me in the middle of enemy towers while a psionist stunned me. Instant death and I could do nothing about it. But thats what I got for charging in alone.
And even with my awesome stats it was futile, though I could have owned the psionist with a few hits.
Nov 28 2009, 2:09 pm
This is what happened to Leftley's Lode Wars.
Nov 28 2009, 3:57 pm
did you just compare Lode Wars to this game? do you really hate Leftley that much?
Nov 28 2009, 4:12 pm
@Zaole: I compared the situation to Lode Wars as well in the 4th comment. The community sucked and Leftley didn't approve. Frankly, I'm sick of people worshiping what is likely one of the reasons a great developer and giver of feedback is gone. Let Lode Wars die!
Nov 28 2009, 5:37 pm
ACWraith wrote:
Frankly, I'm sick of people worshiping what is likely one of the reasons a great developer and giver of feedback is gone. Let Lode Wars die!

...uh, wat

what is this "reason he's gone" that i'm worshipping? where the hell did that even come from? what are you talking about?

Nov 28 2009, 5:57 pm
People continuously praise a game that the developer himself abandoned after dealing with a vile community. However, you shouldn't speak ill of Lode Wars because you hate Leftley. You should speak ill of Lode Wars because you love him!

(Mind you, I don't mean to say that it's the main reason Leftley is gone. I have no idea what happened to him. I just don't think experiences like that helped.)
Nov 29 2009, 10:20 am
What I meant to say is, 'oh lord, TMM is going to ragequit his game like Leftley ragequit Lode Wars.' Read the hub message for Lode Wars and it'll read like a nicer phrased version of this blog post. ACWraith, you have some good points about "omg, still lode wars talking?" But I think that Lode Wars is kind of a *monument* to the failure of the BYOND community. Kind of like a holocaust monument, imho. It should be kept alive to remind everyone why BYOND sucks.
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