ID:83036
 
A retarded brick wall!

So, recently I made a game.
It is an action game, but puts heavy emphasis on stratergy and team work to win.
It was probably partly my fault, as I cannot predict everything in the game and make it work exactly the way I want without extensive testing and adjusting.

But people were not using stratergy, hell, they were barely even using team work.
Most of them sat around the game, barely active. Slowly getting stronger, and gaining money. Basically they were grinding.
Once they decided they were strong enough, they'd try to win the game on their own. And this was a very long, and drawn out process.
They'd charge into combat, dealing minor damage to the enemies, get killed. Respawn and do it all again. Eventually they would win, but due to stratergy, team work of skill. But due to persistantly attacking an enemy.
It was taking anywhere from 3-6 hours for a game to end. When it should take no more than 1-2 hours.

Over the course of the past 3 weeks I have been gradually adjusting the game, to make it conform more with the original concept I had for the game.

Apparently players did not like this.
They do not want to use stratergy to win, they do not want to use team work. They want to sit around for a few hours, slowly getting stronger (kind of reminds me of punching bags), and once they were strong enough, they wanted to go out and dominate everything.

As I changed the game, a few players started to dislike the changes.
They are arguing that I am trying to force them into playing the game in a way they do not want to play it. Sure, I am, but that is because they are playing it wrong.
In a racing game, the objective of the game is to race, in a fighting game the objective is to fight. If people are playing these games, and not doing that, they are playing them wrong.

It is the same situation here. It is partly my fault because the original design of the game was not the greatest. It is hard to make an action game require teamwork and stratergy, which is why I have been progressively making changes to it, to make those elements more essential.

Some of the players still do not like this.
And they just wont be reasoned with. They seem to think because they can play the game, they have some sort of special right over it. They think they should determine how the game is developed, and how it should be designed and played.

And now, one person is like... Trying to take the lead or something stupid like that. I made the mistake of making the host files public, and he has them.
He is like... Trying to make people play the old version of the game he has (before a lot of changes were made), like it is the superior version of the game.

The game was not designed for people like him. So instead of being a reasonable person and playing another game, suited to him, he is instead demanding the game be changed to the way he wants. And at the same time trying to defy me or something by hosting this old version of the game.



I knew that parts of the BYOND community were bad. But it turns out, the vast majority of it is actually really bad.


Pro tip to anyone thinking of making a game with BYOND.
Do not give your potential players ANYTHING. Don't give them hosting files, do not give them a voice, do not let them have opinions. Rule them with an iron fist.
Show them even the slightest glimps of freedom or weakness, and they will try to use it to pervert your game into their own ideal.

I deleted the host files to the game, I changed the hub password so old versions will not show up, I am not giving out host files again.
And I will most likely add subscriber bonuses to the game in an attempt to raise a bit of money to get a decent host for the game (I could pay for one myself, but I'm not going to).
Uh, we all know that some of the douchebags on BYOND will ignore that type of useful information.

So we have to turn it around on them.

Pro tip to anyone thinking of making a game with BYOND.

Give things out to your potential players, give them the host files, give them a voice, do not rule them with an iron fist.


I hope you learned a valuable lesson.
Strategy.

This is the billionth time that you've been surprised by how much the BYOND player base sucks. Hey, guess what, the BYOND player base sucks.
SilkWizard wrote:
Strategy.

This is the billionth time that you've been surprised by how much the BYOND player base sucks. Hey, guess what, the BYOND player base sucks.

Sure is. But that is because every time I think I have seen how bad the community is. It goes and shows me it can be so much worse :[
I'm having visions of Lode Wars. Defend yourself before you fade away like Leftley. ;)
If anything, it is your fault for designing your game to allow for gameplay you now do not wish it to have. You made your game, it appealed to a certain player-base, and now you're telling your players they are doing it wrong; that they should play it differently. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. The audience you attracted was one that enjoys the sort of game you had, and is not at all interested in your vision of what it should be.

You have two courses of actions thereof:
a) You can radically change your game to compel (and possibly force) players to use teamwork or so-called strategy, and continue its development in this fashion. This means people who currently enjoy your game will complain, and might quit it (if you do it good you'll attract new players tho)
b) You can continue the development of the game as you had it. This means you get to keep the current player-base, but that the gameplay will not conform to your vision of it.

I did not originally design, or intend for the game to be played like that. If anything it was more of an issue of balancing that anything.
Some things were too strong, others too weak, and these balancing issues allowed for people to play the game in a way I did not intend it to be.

I could not possibly foresee things turning out like this, as these issues were things that only extensive testing in a real, actual game scenario.
Who cares, just kick those 4 players out and start anew.
IcewarriorX wrote:
Who cares, just kick those 4 players out and start anew.

^
The Magic Man wrote:
I did not originally design, or intend for the game to be played like that.

wrong. wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.


when you added LEVELING in the game, in which you had to REPEATEDLY kill your enemy in order to gain enough EXPERIENCE to increase YOUR CHARACTER'S STATS AND SKILL POOL, what did you expect?

you did build this game to be played in this manner. don't blame your playerbase for your inability to design your game the way you want.
BYOND's player base seems to value being stronger than others above anything else. If you give them a means to do this, they will take the easiest route possible to gain power, even if it means repeating mindless tasks. Remove their ability to be statistically stronger than others, and you'll remove the incentive for them to do this.
Zaole wrote:
wrong. wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.


when you added LEVELING in the game, in which you had to REPEATEDLY kill your enemy in order to gain enough EXPERIENCE to increase YOUR CHARACTER'S STATS AND SKILL POOL, what did you expect?

you did build this game to be played in this manner. don't blame your playerbase for your inability to design your game the way you want.


You're the one who is wrong. The objective is to kill players as you said, and then push forwards and destroy the enemy base.
As you said, you do indeed only get experience from killing players.

The point is, this game is like capture the flag.
The first team to capture the flag (in this case, kill a king) wins.

The maximum level in the game is 25, but a smart team of people can kill the king by the time they are level 15-20. I have seen it done at even lower levels.

So what are people doing? Ignoring team work, and sitting around until they eventually get to level 25. When they get to 25 they then make an unorganized, and usually suicidal run to the king, and get slaughtered.
It is not uncommon for 1 person to try and solo kill the king and anyone defending him.

The point is, people are needlessly prolonging a game just so they can say "MY STATS ARE BIGGER THAN YOURS".
The best part is, no progress is saved. Once a game finishes, everyone and everything is reset.

It makes no god damn sense is what I am getting at.
These people insist it is more fun to play like I stated, sitting around for hours, getting stronger, then making a sloppy attempt at winning.
But it makes no damn sense at all is what I am saying. They are wasting hours getting stronger, and then when they win, they lose everything they gained anyway... So why not just win 3 hours ago like they should have anyway?

This is what I am talking about.
It is like talking to a damn brick wall. These people insist the game should be played the way they are, and they have no reason for insisting this, other than that is what they want.

It is kind of like watching a car race, where people drive at 20 MPH just to make the race last longer. Even though the car they are in can go at 200 MPH.
This game is about as fun as ET for the atari.
IcewarriorX wrote:
This game is about as fun as ET for the atari.

Says the person who didn't even finish making a character.
The Magic Man wrote:
IcewarriorX wrote:
This game is about as fun as ET for the atari.

Says the person who didn't even finish making a character.

Nah, I joined as a berserker who lacks defense but makes up for it in strength! Supposedly I have more power when clicking random objects in the snow.
I'd say do this the way that Subspace/Continuum did it. Everyone starts the same. You can find little upgrades here and there throughout the map, and if your goal is to encourage players to press on into enemy territory, then place upgrades for the other team in your base to give the other guys an incentive to not sit around.

When you die, you lose all upgrades. It might seem worthwhile to run around and upgrade for a bit, but when you realize that every time you die you lose everything you just worked for, the incentive to upgrade loses its appeal.

Throw meaningful stat boosts out the window. If players have to be a certain level before you can play the way they want to play, then they'll grind until they get to that level.

Maybe just give players a choice of some stat boosts whenever they regenerate their player, and have them play with that until they die.
The Magic Man wrote:
You're the one who is wrong.

As you said, you do indeed only get experience from killing players.

lolwut

sounds like i'm right

The point is, people are needlessly prolonging a game just so they can say "MY STATS ARE BIGGER THAN YOURS".

maybe they're doing that because YOU ADDED STAT BOOSTING TO THE GAME.

i'm going to ask a question, and i want you to answer. don't run off on a tangent. don't insult me. just answer the question.

why did you add the ability to boost your stats by mindlessly grinding if that's the exact opposite of how you want your game to be played?
Zaole wrote:
maybe they're doing that because YOU ADDED STAT BOOSTING TO THE GAME.

i'm going to ask a question, and i want you to answer. don't run off on a tangent. don't insult me. just answer the question.

why did you add the ability to boost your stats by mindlessly grinding if that's the exact opposite of how you want your game to be played?

Because it is a vital gameplay element. The game was designed in a specific way, and the ability to level up was part of that design.
Additionally, there is no reason the game cannot be played the way I intended while still allowing players to become stronger as they play.

By your logic, any feature that can be abused in a game, should probably not be added because it can be abused. Which is pretty much ever feature.

As I said, I assumed people would play the game the way I intended it, I was wrong, and so I am making the nescessary changes to the game so they will play it the way I intended.

The problem is some people don't want me to change the game, and these people cannot be reasoned with.
Some of them have made attempts to try and defy any changes I have made, such as hosting their own games of the version before these changes were made, then logging in to the game I was hosting and advertising their game. Effectively dividing the community in two (and it is not particularly large to begin with).
Some of them have even made petty threats against me, I decided to not release the host files anymore, so one threatened to upload and give out the host files he had. I don't even know why he'd do that, but he threatened to.

Please don't blame BYOND for your poor design decisions. Action games and RPG's do not mix well if you have either side completely dominate the game. From what I gather from your post, low level players are too weak to do anything useful and do not have fun playing. The fact that they're even able to grind is a cause for alarm.

Take my shootan' game for example. I made a simple mechanic which allows players of the same team to walk through each other but not enemies. Know what happened? Team members started working together by blocking off paths for the enemy while protecting their flag carrier.

That is true strategy.

Stats and experience just bog a game down unless they're implemented absolutely perfectly.
SuperAntx wrote:
Please don't blame BYOND for your poor design decisions. Action games and RPG's do not mix well if you have either side completely dominate the game. From what I gather from your post, low level players are too weak to do anything useful and do not have fun playing. The fact that they're even able to grind is a cause for alarm.

To be fair. It is not poor design desicion. Once a game starts, new people cannot join.
The game is designed to be played in matches, 3vs3 for example, once organized, other people cannot join halfway through the game. Everyone starts out equal.
The only time people can join a game half way through is practise mode, but that is as named, for practise.

If one team is outleveling the other team, that is likely because they are playing better.

If at least one person in the game plays it properly, grinding for the other team should be pretty much impossible.

But people just are not playing it as intended, and I have no solid idea as to why.
Funnily enough, one person did actually play the game as it should be played. He more or less single handedly dominated the entire enemy team, and everyone was complaining how he was playing as something overpowered. Ironically, when those same people played as that same class, they complained about how useless it was.

It is like... Compare it to a racing game. These people do not even cross the starting line, they are too busy revving their car up. Sure, it makes nice zroom zroom noises, but it's not going anywhere.
And I just do not understand why people find that enjoyable, nor why they would play like that and demand I make the game be played like that.
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