You really are going to continue that discussion here?
The thread was locked, drop it.
Yes, because unlike most of us, I want to try and help byond.
The thread was locked indeed, but only to give time to delete irrelevent posts and stupid assumptions made by almost everyone (including me). There is no reason to drop an issue that is clearly here. The issue is getting more people to stay in byond. | |
Iobject wrote:
Yes, because unlike most of us, I want to try and help byond. I don't see you coming up with many solutions. Might as well stop. | |
ExPixel wrote:
Iobject wrote: Well the mods seem to disagree. They took posts that didn't come up with solutions and removed them. Again, I could have well gone to Unreal and say f*** it, but I have morals and want to help Byond succeed. A concept you, and most of the people posting here, can't grasp. | |
Iobject wrote:
If anything can be figured out from the resource or DM guide, why keep a dev-help section? Because not everything can be solved through it. When someone wants help, link them to the corresponding resource, and if there is no such thing then help them. That simple. You keep repeating this in all of your posts, but I'm not quite sure to what end. This is already how the Developer Help forum works. Without any examples as to incidents where this wasn't the case, there's nothing we can really do except keep debating the exact same thing all day. | |
Alathon wrote:
Iobject wrote: I haven't pointed to examples because I haven't searched for any. I would search for examples if people weren't posting so god damn quickly. | |
...then stop replying and actually go do that? You don't need to reply to every single post with a rebuttal. Go get your evidence first. We'll still be here.
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Tom wrote:
It's hard to say how many find byond and get confused vs just not interested. But nothing in the presentation of materials on the start pages would make me think a user that is really interested in game-developent wouldn't know what to do. If they are really baffled, you'd think they'd just mention it on the forum. There are lots of game development tools out there. If people are baffled, they'll just use something else. The kind of people BYOND needs to attract are the people who have made a computer game before - these people already have a tool they know how to use. They'll dismiss BYOND at the first indication that it's not better than their current game development tool of choice. | |
I guess there is no evidence that is kept on the forums, because I remember specific issues I had posted that are suddenly gone from searching "author:Iobject" that I could have sworn I made.
So now, I can't specifically post to Dev-help topics, however I do recall a post I had linked by SilkGames about how the Dev-help wasn't answering questions and when they were it wasn't very nice. I also recall a post made by Lugia319 about how people bashed on a new dev and called them a ripper when they were just trying to learn programming. That alone should be evidence, being that they are still posts and they are very valid, although I am not 100% sure if it counts as "evidence". Other than the dev-help section, another issue that I'm pretty sure I posted was the fact that we don't have anything we can clearly advertise as a successful game except for NESTalgia, so I believe we need more of our "dedicated developers" to collaborate on something to make. As for me, I've got my Isometric Naruto game and an UnReal project, so I won't be able to help in much departments, but I do recall having a source that I made up that contained a game I was creating and if you want, I can make that open-source for developers to collaborate and work off of to make something cool. Being that it is incomplete, that means it will have bugs and glitches here and there, however it has a lot of things to keep in mind: Attacking It's been a while since I touched the source, and I had intended it to be the game to "top NESTalgia's success" but had gotten hit with an unexpected UnReal project, so if you guys want you can work off of it. I'm open to a few methods of giving it out without technically "giving it out". I was thinking to open a dropbox folder for you all and if you want to work on it I can add your email and you all can work towards it, however if you have come up with another solution to make it so that it is easier to modify bit by bit, I'm open to other ways! | |
Usually something like subversion is your best option, although it requires some learning, just as it will stop you unknowingly overwriting each other's stuff etc.
I'm probably gonna just have to leave the developer help thing be, without specific examples. However don't worry, we'll be sure to watch the topics (as we do at the moment) for the kind of stuff you've been talking about, and handle it as we see it, and make sure the current (in my opinion) good dev help doesn't slip a lot. | |
Stephen001 wrote:
Usually something like subversion is your best option, although it requires some learning, just as it will stop you unknowingly overwriting each other's stuff etc. Dropbox keeps overwrited copies saying which copy it is :P If anyone doesn't hate me (even though I was trying to help the whole way through) and are interested in this, just contact me! [email protected] is my windows live messenger or Byond message me! | |
Looks like a long one so I'm going to split this up by topic.
Address to OP Look Narutorox123456, we all know it's you. And I didn't bash you, I gave you the truth. Fangame Issue Fangames get a bad rap for a reason. But before you start saying "BYOND bashes fangame lovers" remember this. I have been the one that has always supported good fangames (as does the community). There's nothing wrong with fangames. There's everything wrong with poorly made fangames (and games in general) Dev-Help I don't know where you're getting this "dev-help abuse" story from. Sure, some things said might seem harsh, but these "harsh" comments are meant to make people better programmers. Garthor (great man) was the reason I became a better programmer when I was new. He practically babied me with criticism and insight. Garthor didn't hold hands. He taught you to teach yourself. And that's the goal of dev-help. It's there as a resource, but it's not there to make your games for you (like some people try to use it). Obligatory Rip-Rant Rips are always going to be criticized. Why? Well, what would happen if I published Harry Potter all over again? I'd get sent to prison (assuming the obvious plagiarism passed through the editorial filter). Why do we tell you to not use ripped code in dev-help? BECAUSE: 1. It's wrong 1. It's bad practice 1. It's wrong I'm sure you've seen rips, and if you're half as competent as you think you are, you'd know that they promote bad practice. "Yes, let's do F[X] for EVERY SINGLE VARIABLE when saving!" "Yes! Let's make an current value and max value variable for each stat independently! (and then save these huehuehuehue)" Not to mention that ripping seems to go hand-in-hand with the lvl 9001 GM stuff that happens in the fangame community. I mean... wtf guys. Copy someone else's work and then you write yourself in as the boss and just troll innocent players? (The first game I played was a rip ffs) Resource There are many posts from throughout BYOND's history that explain certain things. The Resources section actually has a sticky with a ton of useful resource (which is actually quite helpful. Back in my day you actually had to dig for resources on your own). There were a couple of tutorials in the upper right I believe, Zilal's tutorials, and when you were done with those you were pretty much on a good start. Now the list has greatly expanded. Falacy and F_A have made tutorials on the game-making process. F_A has created a great mass of resources for people to use to improve their games (Thanks F_A!). You sound like a guy who has never really understood libraries before the internet. I'm not that old, so I don't know it too well either, but it works like this. There was a time when you actually had to have a desire to learn something to dig through hours of chaff until you finally get to your golden piece of wheat. Things are made extremely easy for you now and you still complain that they're not easy enough. And tbh, if you think F1 solves everything, I don't see why you're complaining about the dev-help not being a viable resource. It doesn't concern you, so don't mess with it. Closing I do fear I've gotten off-topic so I'll get right back to it. Most of whatever you're saying is all in your head bud. Sure, BYOND may seem kinda "stuck" right now, but that'll be fixed when (like I said before) membership benefits are more exciting. The only thing that's really stopping BYOND from getting out there is a lack of advertising. | |
Lugia summarised succinctly what most of us have been saying, I think.
Dev Help is full of unhelp and abuse. Go find us topics like this, and we'll flood you with topics that aren't. People are mean to rippers. Yes. Because they're doing wrong. People are mean to newbies. Some people. Yes. Welcome to the internet. People have to search for knowledge on their own. Yeah. Welcome to life. People who don't like anime are mean to people who do. ...Yes. And? Opinions happen. I assume this is what you're actually saying here; I want enforced niceness by everyone. No. Impossible. I've tried it already, and I'm pretty sure mods in the past and users in the past have tried it. | |
Lugia319 wrote:
Address to OPWhen did I say you bashed me? I never said you bashed me. I said that you had a post addressing a new developer had been bashed. That new developer didn't have any relation to me or my old account. Now back on topic, please read the last post I have made that is a possible solution and maybe that will help. Also thanks for reading the entire post without raging at the part of dev-help or the fact I say anime lovers bash anime haters and anime haters bash anime lovers | |
Why are we even talking about dev-help? A smart developer is not going to pass up software based on someone "being mean" to them on a forum. People pass up BYOND because it doesn't look it's worth the time investment.
When you go to Unity.com and Google the games they have on display, you actually see professional games. Those developers present their games properly, create websites, trailers, have a bunch of attention from the press, have their games on multiple platforms, and most important of all, are making money. This makes developers say "Wow, if I use this engine, I could probably make it big." When you come to BYOND and Google our games, you'll be lucky just to find the game being talked about anywhere else. Our games have half-assed presentation, most have absolutely no website, trailer, or attention from blogs or websites. The sad thing about it is we have several games that, if polished, could've easily accomplished what NEStalgia has but for some reason Silk Games and the SS13 community seem to be the only people concerned about getting people outside of BYOND to see their projects. People look at the games on BYOND and say "Meh." I believe most people leave far before they even find our forums. I'm sure if I saw BYOND for the first time today, I would have passed it up too. Most of what we have here is only impressive to children. I joined when I was 11 or 12 and when you're young, you think any little game is awesome no matter how crappy it actually is. If I joined now as a 19 year old who has developed some actual standards for games, most of what BYOND has to offer would have been an instant turnoff and I would have had no interest in learning to make games with DM. I'm only here because I joined when I was young enough to be impressed by punching pbags and having powerlevels over 9000 and have grown comfortable with BYOND over the years. Most of the potential developers that could come here and make something awesome never will because only a handful of our games are worth playing and even less of those games are ever promoted so people can, you know, ACTUALLY DISCOVER THEM. We get out of BYOND what we put into it and right now 90% of what we put into it is garbage. Look at how long we allowed copyright infringing anime games that look like they were made by 10 year olds high on bath salts dominate the live games list. I'm pretty sure that was impressing the hell out of potential developers! | |
EmpirezTeam wrote:
I'm sure if I saw BYOND for the first time today, I would have passed it up too. Most of what we have here is only impressive to children. ET, I think we're the only people who realize that. Most people who use BYOND only use it because they don't know that other/better things exist. The people who make rips don't know of any other way to make games, so they use BYOND. How many people who use BYOND have actually made games with something else but found they preferred BYOND? There are hardly any. BYOND doesn't attract these kinds of developers because they have no reason to take BYOND seriously - the website, the forum, the software itself - there's nothing about it that looks like it's actually a competitor to other game development platforms. | |
Back when I joined BYOND in 2003, I wasn't actually aware you could make games with it. All I recall was seeing a comic on dragon-warrior.com about Dragon Warrior Online, was told I needed to install some program called BYOND to play it, did so, and then played the game. It would be another year or so before I learned about Dream Maker's existence, and at least another three or four before realizing there was even a forum to ask questions on.
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There's nothing about it that looks like it's actually a competitor to other game development platforms. Native support for multiplayer, for one. Also, I'll just say right now that Torque is utter wank. | |
Forum_account wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote: This discussion dates back to something like 2002 or 2003 by now; one thing that always gets me is that the discussion is very rarely constructive. Everyone has different ideas of what the website is supposed to attract, how to do it, why it isn't, etc. that its simply too vague and broad. - One question is whether the website turns away a developer who would otherwise choose to download BYOND, give it a whirl and see what they could create in it. If so, why it does, and how to fix it are the next logical questions. - Another is whether the features BYOND offers via its programming language, are attractive enough to get the type of programmers that its looking to attract. If not, this would mean a developer tried out BYOND, and then got frustrated with it and left again. The question then is, what features were needed but unavailable, and are those plausible / representative for a direction you want to go in. - Yet another is whether the programmer never gave BYOND a chance, but looked at the general aesthetics of the games created and decided, 'If this is the best its got, I won't bother'. People often have difficulty sorting out their assumptions about what players know, what developers know, what they think when they visit the website, etc. And these assumptions are often incredibly dangerous, and cloud things a great deal. This seems to have drifted a fair bit from the original topic, though... | |
That is a valid point, however my point is still true. Remember the post you made a long time ago about a new developer that was bashed on for asking in the dev-help section?
If anything can be figured out from the resource or DM guide, why keep a dev-help section? Because not everything can be solved through it. When someone wants help, link them to the corresponding resource, and if there is no such thing then help them. That simple.