Since the average BYOND customer seems to be attracted to Animé themed games, I decided to do a little "field research".
As Naruto is within the top three, I decided to watch the series in order to be capable of judging the games and communicating with the community.
Now, when I did listen to one of the theme songs, I was astonished seeing how the values that the song and the series most likely try to get across are not reflected at all in the BYOND Animé community.
The theme referred to as a whole:
"We are Fighting Dreamers aiming high
Fighting Dreamers don't care what people think about them
Fighting Dreamers follow what they believe
Oli Oli Oli Oh! Just go my way
Right here right now (Bang)
Hit it straight like a line drive!
Right here right now (Burn)
We're gonna do it and do our best!
Down a difficult road filled with endless struggles
Where do you think you are going following someone else's map?
A wise crow comes along to tear up the map
Now open your eyes and take a look at the truth (Yeah!)
There's nothing to loose, so let's GO!
We are Fighting Dreamers aiming high
Fighting Dreamser don't care what people think bout them
Fighting Dreamers follow what they believe
Oli Oli Oli Oh! Just go my way
Right here right now (Bang)
Hit it straight like a ine dive!
Right here right now (Burn)
We're gonna do it and do our best! Bang!
Right here right now (Bang)
Hit it straight like a line drive
Right here right now (Burn)
We're gona do it and do our best! Bang!"
Please allow me to get into detail now.
"Fighting Dreamers don't care what people think about them"
It seems that those playing care a lot about what others think of them. Heated flame wars, the desire to show what one's capable of and the reaction when someone defies the effort put forth to achieve a certain goal clearly point in that direction.
Sometimes, stepping back, rethinking an opposing position, taking criticism without reacting sore and staying calm (polite) might be useful and help the community.
"Where do you think you are going following someone else's map?"
To a community filled with stealing other peoples work, this ought to look like sheer mockery.
Even the very rare case that someone created source code and art on her own still leaves them stealing the copyrighted theme and general ideas.
People call this "fan fiction", trying to sound less like theft, but that is putting lipstick on the pig.
Sometime going through the (painful and hard) way of creating an own idea might pay off for everyone. Can your dream (Build Your Own Net Dream) be really the dream of someone else, or is that not more like taking the easy way and copying?
"Right here right now (Burn)
We're gonna do it and do our best!
Down a difficult road filled with endless struggles"
These people that take a source code, edit it slightly and release it as their own, did they take a difficult road?
Doesn't this try to encourage us to fight our way through learning the language and create something to be proud of?
Do the heroes of this series not work with blood and sweat to gain the abilities they possess (sharingan aside *smiles*, see I learned something!)?
Now, the brave reader is prone to reply that learning DM is too tricky, that she tried and couldn't overcome the obstacles in her way.
But this is where BYOND would desperately need your help. This is where you could shine and become a hero yourself!
Point out your problems to those in charge.
Try to analyse your effort and failure by seeking help in the developers forum and upon succeeding, create a document to help those coming after you.
Evolve from Genin to Jonin, from scholar to teacher and help those that try to get past the same problems you did with finding their way.
Or, even better, help others with doing this!
Since often aspiring programmers tend to overestimate their abilities after first success, clearly describe where you encountered problems and try to work together with experienced developers (Alathon, Stephen001, Tiberath, just to name a few) to get an article for the Developers guild, or even a better guide/tutorial.
I want to conclude this with a quote:
"Now open your eyes and take a look at the truth (Yeah!)
There's nothing to loose, so let's GO!"
This begs the question: why do they behave in this way, when that which they treat in such a cult-like fashion preaches such different values?
There are two answers: 1. They're 10 years old. They don't have the commitment or attention span to actually learn to program and create a game from the ground up. 2. They don't watch the show for its themes, they watch it because it has ninjas/violence/constant 'subtle' titillating scenes of boy-girl interaction/it's what's popular, so they feel obliged to like it. | |
Tiberath wrote:
one can argue that by stealing, they instantly shoot themselves in the foot. http://rookery2.viary.com/storagev12/1085500/ 1085799_4807_625x1000.jpg | |
Well, I at least learned that rel='thumbnail' works for blog comments. Cheers. =)
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Zaole wrote:
They don't watch the show for its themes, they watch it because it has ninjas/violence... That strikes me as the correct explanation right there. | |
Naruto is a joke.
The ultimate badguy who is to peinful he'll make you hurt while you hurt and wants to destroy the world (with pain) so it becomes a good world... Has the best motivation ever. NINJAS KILLED HIS... DOG I'm not even joking either. His whole "MY PAIN IS THE GREATEST EVER SO I WILL DESTROY THE WORLD" is due to his dog getting killed. Talk about DEEP, or maybe that is DERP. Want a manga/anime series that will make you giddy as a little school girl, feel all kinds of manly awesomeness, make you wet yourself laughing and make even a grown adult cry (manly) tears? Go read One Piece. It might seem childish and have a kiddy looking art style, but no joke, some of the scenes in it are the funniest things you'll ever read, some are the most awesomely manly things you'll ever read, and others are by far some of the saddest, most depressing scenes you'll ever read. | |
The Magic Man wrote:
Naruto is a joke. Which of course is all moot because, as we mentioned earlier: Zaole wrote: They don't watch the show for its themes, they watch it because it has ninjas/violence... | |
Lol, uggh. Okay so unfortunately for you, your brilliant analysis of the introductory song of the Naruto Anime is a very poor argument. Why? well first people like me only watch the manga where theme song is entirely absent, also, more importantly for those who actually follow the story and didnt just watch one episode of the terrible Anime, the main character of Naruto ie Naruto is a loudmouth who everybody thinks is a failure, he then goes on to persevere because he has a good work ethic and does things for the right reasons. So basically every person making an anime game doesnt care what you think of them, if you say their game is awful they might just think they are the Naruto of BYOND and have to prove you wrong by persevering through your criticisms, and in no way is the Naruto anime preaching the lesson of being civil on web-forums.
Also, let me just say that saying people making anime games should know better than to make crappy quality games because the Naruto anime preaches hard work, that is the stupidest point anybody has ever tried to make. The reason there are so many awful anime games is because the average age of Anime game developer is far lower than the average age of say, Strategy game developer. The correlation has to do entirely with age, nothing to do with values, these kids WANT to make a high quality game, they even often THINK they are making a high quality game. Those taking shortcuts arent doing it because they are lazy they are doing it because they are young, dont understand basic programming in many instances and are trying to learn in a way that makes sense to them. The fact that people learn from ripping instead of from the DM guide, especially at a young age is really easy to see, it has nothing to do with integrety or values, it has to do with the fact that if somebody has no programming background the DM guide will prove too cryptic for them. Also, the obvious reason kids from the Anime guild often write inarticulate or loudmouth forum posts is because there are lots of very young kids drawn here by anime games. Also, about the Naruto manga: Yes Nagatos dog died, no that isnt what drove him to become a villain, that entire chapter was about Yahiko's goal of becoming basically a dictator of the entire world so he could stop war, and how Nagato adopted his dream (since we know Yahiko dies.). The dog was a small plot device to bring up the conversation, so that Yahiko could say that when he is a god this type of crap wont happen anymore. I dont know how you got such a poor comprehension of a manga aimed at a younger audience. Also another reason for Nagato turning into a villain, his entire family was murdered by Konoha Ninja during the war. OH but sure, yeah, it was his dog dying. Thanks for making a valid argument. (http://img-gg.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000166242/03.jpg , http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/445/16/ , http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/445/17/ ) Honestly, if after reading that chapter, you somehow took away that Nagato became a bad guy in response to his dog dying then you really are just stupid. This is not that complicated a manga to follow. | |
Masterdan's comment is the unabridged version of mine.
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Zaole wrote:
Masterdan's comment is the unabridged version of mine. Saying very little with a lot of words. I'm curious why he starts analysing the Manga in response to all this when really, most of the kids 'round here only watch the Anime and couldn't care less about comics. | |
Oh, is that so. Then why is it that my game's audience is always expecting updates and content based on characters and developments from the manga as opposed to the anime? Most people do the same thing I do, they follow the weekly manga and maybe the anime too, but you dont follow a series like Naruto with the months of time lag between anime and manga adaptation without first reading it in the Manga.
Manga for all things is better, Bleach, Naruto, Dragonball. The Anime takes it and adds filler to it and completely butchers the entire thing, its like watching the english dub of Naruto, horribly difficult to do, wouldnt recommend it. Its not hard to see why there is a schism between those who dont understand why people like Naruto and those who follow it, those who follow it are paying attention to the subbed manga while those who resent it are watching the Dubbed Anime. I dont blame you quite frankly, I change the channel when Naruto comes on TV. | |
Masterdan wrote:
(...)people like me only watch the manga where theme song is entirely absent I can only go by what (agreeable little) information I have gathered in my little adventure so far, watching Naruto Episode 1 through 99, however it seems to me that the story indeed correlates with the theme song (at least where it isn't blunt out contradicting itself) in most ethic regards. Masterdan wrote: Naruto (...) does things for the right reasons. Actually, in the beginning (read as in the first 99(+?) episodes), he doesn't. He wants to be Hokage in order for the villagers to respect him. While in a working social structure, you should always aim for consensus, you might not want to try and define yourself through others. The third Hokage presents a far better reason to "put your life on the line", as he seeks to "protect these precious to him". Masterdan wrote: So basically every person making an anime game doesnt care what you think of them, if you say their game is awful they might just think they are the Naruto of BYOND and have to prove you wrong by persevering through your criticisms These are contradicting statements. If someone does not care what others think about them, they do not flame, but ignore. Granted, a true argument would be even better, but like mentioned before, the average age seems to prevent listening to arguments (which is an essential part in a discussion). Masterdan wrote: and in no way is the Naruto anime preaching the lesson of being civil on web-forums. Flaming on forums is done for two reasons. Trolls feeding of the attention (/young kids wanting to look cool by using swear words) and people getting upset. Both basically means caring for other people's opinion. Masterdan wrote: Also, let me just say that saying people making anime games should know better than to make crappy quality games because the Naruto anime preaches hard work Would you mind pointing me to where I mentioned that? I can't recall ever writing anything about quality in the blog posting, but maybe Tiberath schizophrenic chat conversations got to me and I missed on my "blue side" writing that one (*grins*). Please note that game quality and creativity are very different points. Masterdan wrote: that is the stupidest point anybody has ever tried to make. See. This is where you insult me and I just ignore it, because I do not need to define me by what you are thinking of me *smiles*. I am however always open to a decent discussion, since that is a great way of learning. Replying to your wrong assumption and ignoring the insult, that's a reasonable way. Masterdan wrote: The correlation has to do entirely with age, nothing to do with values, these kids WANT to make a high quality game, they even often THINK they are making a high quality game. Those taking shortcuts arent doing it because they are lazy they are doing it because they are young, dont understand basic programming in many instances and are trying to learn in a way that makes sense to them. The fact that people learn from ripping instead of from the DM guide, especially at a young age is really easy to see, it has nothing to do with integrety or values, it has to do with the fact that if somebody has no programming background the DM guide will prove too cryptic for them. It seems that either you did not pay close attention to my points, or I failed to make them clear. Leaving the mistranslation of creativity (read as in, not having to steal) to quality aside, I tried to lay out an even better way. I agree that learning the language can be difficult, which is why I always try to encourage the creation of new (more aimed and user friendly) tutorials. And there every can help! By pointing out the problems in detail, the first step to enhancement is done. | |
As much as you are trying to make a rational discussion out of this, I am going to continue with my belief that your entire point being made here is just silly. Just because somebody is a fan of a show doesnt mean that the ethics and message being brought through the introductory song has any bearing on making games. It is just too weak a rational point.
Also you ignore the fact that there are many different characters in the Naruto show, while Naruto might be hot-headed, hard working and cares about people there are other character that are far more popular such as Sasuke who is introverted, only cares about himself and bent on power from any source (ripping). So Instead of actually trying to get in depth on this topic im trying to explain to you that it is just a dumb topic, not saying you are dumb but im saying the underlying point of this blog post is just way too weak, unproductive and futile to be worth discussing. Quite frankly japanese theme songs to anime are extraordinarily lame, so when you try to draw actual logical points from the theme song you already lost the strength of your actual argument. Ill actually address your points though because that seems important to you: Doesn't this try to encourage us to fight our way through learning the language and create something to be proud of? A: The song maybe, the messages of the show are far less clear and ideologically different characters split. Naruto refuses to give up and gets through with willpower, him and Rock Lee are characters that follow the hard work doctrine. However Sasuke, orochimaru etc follow the get power through any means necessary approach which would be more in line with rip because it helps you get ahead of your peers, take shortcuts and you will be able to be the strongest. Like I said, the point really falls apart because becoming a better ninja and programming a better ninja game are hardly the same, stealing artwork is bad in an intellectual property way and that needs to be the focus, if people find virtues through Naruto then they might just think that stealing graphics and getting source codes is a part of that hard work. Do the heroes of this series not work with blood and sweat to gain the abilities they possess (sharingan aside *smiles*, see I learned something!)? A: Haha, that is unfortunately the problem, half the characters are simply given gifts and it makes them supperior based on bloodline/luck etc. People might not be so swayed to follow the RockLee/Naruto approach of earning everything with blood and sweat, moreso they might want to be the person who is smart enough to find the shortcuts (theft) to make the best game instead of being a sucker (narutos character is not very popular, he is seen as a loser compared to the genius characters of the show). Now, the brave reader is prone to reply that learning DM is too tricky, that she tried and couldn't overcome the obstacles in her way. But this is where BYOND would desperately need your help. This is where you could shine and become a hero yourself! A: Gag me, the problem is that these kids spend a futile amount of time in a community that wont tolerate their spellings errors and the DM guide is not something they can understand. Either developers need to be more patient with noobs or more simple tutorials need to be advertised to them. Point out your problems to those in charge. Try to analyse your effort and failure by seeking help in the developers forum and upon succeeding, create a document to help those coming after you. Evolve from Genin to Jonin, from scholar to teacher and help those that try to get past the same problems you did with finding their way. A: I know what your trying to say, I just think that your being coy in trying to use lyrics from the Naruto Anime to make a point, what you should do is just be straightforward and talk to this audience directly. Dispel the myth that no games are original, explain that the developer forum is here for them, reinforce the fact that ripping isnt tolerated and that you can not make a good game if your using somebody else's work. I am not mad at you, i see what your doing, Im not against the points you are making but i feel this is a silly and inarticulate way of making them. You dont need to watch Naruto to connect to the anime crowd, being available to coach people into the right direction does more good than anything else. Anyway, I didnt mean to be jerk by saying the post is stupid, but I just think it is kind of silly. | |
I'm sorry Snagler, the great Masterdan has spoken. We all know when Masterdan speaks, the discussion is over, because he is clearly infallible.
All hail Masterdan. | |
Masterdan wrote:
Just because somebody is a fan of a show doesnt mean that the ethics and message being brought through the introductory song has any bearing on making games. It is just too weak a rational point. Actually, tales and metaphors often contain a certain message of moral that they are trying to indoctrinate. You might call it a sugar coated philosophy lesson to make the bitter pill less troublesome for children to swallow. If the cause succeeds is surely up for debate and I am actually trying to make the point that it does not in this case, even though I think the community would profit if it would. Masterdan wrote: Also you ignore the fact that there are many different characters in the Naruto show, while Naruto might be hot-headed, hard working and cares about people there are other character that are far more popular such as Sasuke who is introverted, only cares about himself and bent on power from any source (ripping). I by no means neglect this, as it encourages my point. In a basic "black and white" moral lesson, you need to supply both good and evil, else the point would be vain. Like someone once said, without evil, you could never define good, like you can not tell what light is without knowing darkness. I have not finished my experiment, so please excuse my lack of knowledge in this segment. I can only assume that Sasuke is going to become the next evil, as the plot seems to hint that way to me (I'm only at episode 99). That would indicate that the series indeed displays Sasukes way as evil. The fact that a massive amount of younger people are indeed attracted by "evil" characters (I r want b coolz gangsta) would lead to a long debate on various social aspects of modern life, which would kind of burst the size of a blog comment. Masterdan wrote: when you try to draw actual logical points from the theme song you already lost the strength of your actual argument. And yet, when you take a careful look, you can see that the same topics are addressed in the very animé broadcast itself (I did not read the manga, so I won't be able to judge that) and are assigned values. The theme song just highlights them in a clearer to understand way. Masterdan wrote: (...)the messages of the show are far less clear and ideologically different characters split. Naruto refuses to give up and gets through with willpower, him and Rock Lee are characters that follow the hard work doctrine. However Sasuke, orochimaru etc follow the get power through any means necessary approach which would be more in line with rip Exactly. And now look which characters represent good and which represent evil. Get something done yourself, earning it by working for it => Good (guy); Take the easy way and copy other people's creative ideas => Evil (guy); Masterdan wrote: becoming a better ninja and programming a better ninja game are hardly the same Becoming a better (good) ninja and becoming a better person seem rather similar to me though. Like I said, I never included any kind of quality remarks in my posting, I was solely talking about not stealing. And to be blunt out honest with you, most governments seem to agree with me that trying to avoid stealing makes you a better person ;) Masterdan wrote: (...)these kids spend a futile amount of time in a community that wont tolerate their spellings errors That is just not true. What people frown upon is when someone does not take time and effort to write a good enough posting, but asks others to take the time and code their game for them. There is a difference in that. Masterdan wrote: (...) more simple tutorials need to be advertised to them. You're running in open doors with me there. Yet, I still think that in order to get this one working, you'd have to truly understand the difficulties. Which is something I pointed out in my blog post. Masterdan wrote: (...)what you should do is just be straightforward and talk to this audience directly. Last time I told someone on the CA forum that "Me and this guy make the game" is not a valid description and thus will not really encourage others to help him, the reply was "shut up, I hate people like you". The straight forward attempt does not seem to work. Masterdan wrote: Dispel the myth that no games are original Actually, that is no myth. A game stealing/copying content can hardly be considered original/creative. Soon as a game's name contains the term "Naruto/Dragonball/Bleach/..." it is no longer original by definition of the word. Masterdan wrote: (...)Im not against the points you are making but i feel this is a silly and inarticulate way of making them. Actually, I do not try to do anything. I am well aware of the facts that the average animé programmer does not read blog posts and even less mine and least of all would consider a valid discussion as in trying to comprehend an argument. So, I'm in a very good position. Not trying to achieve anything means I can not fail on my task! Masterdan wrote: You dont need to watch Naruto to connect to the anime crowd Oh, yes, I do. I tried playing two Naruto games (one of which was Naruto GOA). After less than 5 minutes I surrendered. But I tend to try and provide facts when arguing, as I try and give constructive criticism instead of just saying: "No, not like that". While watching Naruto I had various enlightening ideas on what might be improved on Naruto games. | |
Tiberath wrote:
I'm sorry Snagler, the great Masterdan has spoken. We all know when Masterdan speaks, the discussion is over, because he is clearly infallible. Continuing to be a douchebag i see. | |
I shall now take us into the mind of Masterdan, 5 minutes ago:
"hmmm... I could respond to the well-thought out post that addressed each argument I made, or I could just respond hatefully to some other hateful comment and as a result make it look like I'm the winner of this argument without having to put forth any further logical discussion. well gee, this is an easy choice." | |
Yea, Masterdan is not particularly capable in the matters of deep thought.
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Obviously certain people in this topic have not read enough Manga, or seen nearly enough anime.
The "values", "themes" or "deeper meanings" manga like Naruto tries to convey are shallow at best. Even when it tries to be highly serious, it turns out to be nothing more than boring, at worst a laughable joke. Want real deep and thought provoking shounen? Go read One Piece. It made the disposal of a BOAT, which was not even a character, had no personality, dialoug or any real presense at all sadder than anything I have ever seen in any other shounen. Kind of makes you laugh when you think about it. | |
On the flip side, someone who steals a source knows full well they aren't going to be shown an ounce of respect by any prominent member in the BYOND Anime community or the BYOND Community in general.
Seeing as 'rippers' are the most hated class of person on BYOND in general, one can argue that by stealing, they instantly shoot themselves in the foot. And in order to gain the respect of the community they are so desperately trying to appeal to, they do in fact start off with a disadvantage and have to work much harder than you or I. This could be construed as 'taking the hard road'. Where as simply learning the language and making a game is oddly enough, the easier path.
Not only do they have to inevitably lean the language, they also have to learn to improve the source they've started off with and eventually, over time, evolve the game to one day be a brand new game that does not contain stolen content. Finally, they'll have to strip themselves of the poor reputation they started off with. Which to my knowledge, hasn't happened yet.
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Now one can argue that, but I choose not too because it's a load of crap.
I agree with you Snagler. The Anime series they love so much is so subtly mocking them. And I personally find that notion to be hilarious. =)