Apr 24 2012, 10:21 am
In response to Albro1
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LordAndrew
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I'd imagine it wouldn't be that hard to port over this feature from the help boards, though I doubt the points would count towards anything.
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Tom said something recently about not wanting the 'pictures of cats' thing to go on, I believe - people posting something they find witty or amusing and people +1-ing is basically pictures of cats.
The +1/Like functionality is heavily tied-in to social networking and 'popularity contests,' which isn't something I personally feel we should encourage ( we had a lot of trouble with the blogs for exactly that reason. ) There's an exception for technical matters, of course, where by 'upvoting' the person who gives the best technical answer you can see at a glance who's the most reliably helpful user (and thus listen to him.) | |
My, my! Things got busy while I was off at college!
This entire thread seems to have gotten several people riled up! However the whole business seems rather silly. If you do not like how BYOND is run, leave. That's all there is to it. Is there an apparent inconsistency in the deletion of posts? Perhaps. But from the way the mods have posted here, it does not seem like there will be any change. What are you going to do? Boycott the forums? Refuse to make posts for months, in a representation of the "silence" the mods are imposing on you? If you want change, you will probably have to organize a mass event in a way that doesn't harm the product too much. Going on strike (not programming) will not work, because then BYOND dies. Making games but keeping them on the "down-low" will not work because it all but defeats the point of the games. A forum boycott wouldn't work because if you leave people needing help too long in Developer Help, they leave, and the user-base declines. Appeals through discussion aren't working here, but probably because the people complaining sound like children. I am interested in seeing what comes out of this. | |
I recall him saying the same thing, and I can agree to an extent, but what about feature requests?
Sometimes people get busy and don't have much time to respond, or they simply don't have much else to add; but they want to show support. This leads to +1 posts that are valuable, because more support makes it seem like a request that might help assist developers more. At least in my opinion. Honestly, I think this topic has gotten out of hand at times, and that some people do make too big of a deal about this sometimes; but there are some good points scattered throughout this topic. Like mods needing better tools, such as splitting, for example. Improving communication and reasons for deletion is another good point. People just need to relax, and improvements just need to be made. That's something most people should be able to agree on. | |
The feature tracker used to have a system of votes actually, where each person got a limited number to 'allocate' to issues they wanted worked on, and if a thing got added to BYOND then you got your feature request 'points' back to add to something else.
The only forums where an 'I agree' button makes any practical, useful sense are Feature Requests, Developer Help and BYOND Help. Design Philosophy should really promote more sophisticated discussion than just "I agree ^" and the Bug Reports tickets would also benefit a lot more from someone providing their own data rather than just "Me too." | |
BYOND Mods are the devil.
In all the years I've been on BYOND, very few posts I've made have actually been deleted and they've all been for legitimate reasons. There's the posting guidelines. If you don't read them or choose not to follow them then face the consequence. Simple as that. | |
If this was any other forum, ATHK would probably have been banned on day one, if only temporarily, for spending his time harassing and disobeying the requests of those who at least try to keep these forums civil and worth while.
If anything, the moderators are being far too patient. I think they aren't deleting enough posts. Too many topics become flame baiting and general dickery. | |
Deathguard wrote:
The only forums where an 'I agree' button makes any practical, useful sense are Feature Requests, Developer Help and BYOND Help. Design Philosophy should really promote more sophisticated discussion than just "I agree ^" and the Bug Reports tickets would also benefit a lot more from someone providing their own data rather than just "Me too." However, if you added an "I agree" button, you wouldn't have posts like that. If someone says my exact thoughts on an issue in Design Philosophy, I don't want to repeat it. I'd rather 1+ it to show support. | |
But we don't -need- an I Agree button; we need people to drop the Facebook/Lolcats mentality when they're posting on BYOND.
Especially in Design Philosophy. If you're going to post there, think about what you're saying, add something useful; the whole point of it being Design Philosophy is that some thought goes into it. | |
Being able to say "I agree" almost always makes sense. If someone posts their ideas about game design in Design Philosophy, it's good for them to be able to see that other people agree with them (even if those people don't have anything to add, they simply just agree).
All you're going to do is force people to bloat their posts by giving a long explanation of why they agree, but all they're really saying is "I agree". If that's all they have to say, then that's all they should say. | |
Forum_account wrote:
Being able to say "I agree" almost always makes sense. If someone posts their ideas about game design in Design Philosophy, it's good for them to be able to see that other people agree with them (even if those people don't have anything to add, they simply just agree). I agree. | |
Except that this shouldn't become a popularity contest, and whoever's post has the most "Likes" - because let's face it, that's basically what's being argued for - is going to become nothing but a popularity contest.
I do not see any reason that just blithely agreeing with a statement of design philosophy should be something we encourage. We should encourage technical, constructive and progressive discussion and debate. Not stagnation in the form of an easy-way-out 'Yeah sure' button. If you agree with a philosophy of design, at least take the time to explain why; the original poster about it won't have covered everything. We have a system for marking the best technical answer to questions in the Help sections. This serves perfectly well. We do not need a Like/Dislike or Praise/Smite system; BYOND has had that in the past attached to the blogs, and nothing good came of it. | |
Except that this shouldn't become a popularity contest, and whoever's post has the most "Likes" - because let's face it, that's basically what's being argued for - is going to become nothing but a popularity contest. It's not a matter of popularity. People agreeing with what you say validates what you're saying. If you say "I think you should design games this way..." and people agree, you know you're not completely crazy. Knowing that people agree with your design philosophy is useful and the discussion benefits from knowing who agrees with you. If you agree with a philosophy of design, at least take the time to explain why Maybe it's more polite to write up a more elaborate response, but if you simply agree there's nothing wrong with only saying that you agree. The OP would certainly appreciate more details about the things you agree with or would like to know what parts you may not agree with as strongly, but not providing these details shouldn't be against the rules of the forum (and be grounds for deleting the post). I'd favor these short replies over some kind of +1 system. With simple votes like that you never know why people are giving votes - do they agree? do they like it? do they think it's funny? are they a friend of the OP? We do not need a Like/Dislike or Praise/Smite system; BYOND has had that in the past attached to the blogs, and nothing good came of it. It didn't work because it didn't have a clear purpose. People used it as a like/dislike or agree/disagree but the staff used it to find inappropriate posts. I agree that the forum doesn't need something like this but it would work if done correctly. | |
Knowing that people agree with your design philosophy is useful and the discussion benefits from knowing who agrees with you. The discussion - and the poster - benefit from knowing who agrees with specific methods or concepts, and who has ideas for taking those methods or concepts further. It's actually completely useless to simply know that someone agrees generally with what a previous user has said; as you said, this could be because they're their friend, or don't know any better, or just agree with an amusing metaphor the poster used. If something is completely absurd, then it will be explained that it is absurd. If it's not absurd, it should be built on by concurrent posters. There is no value in a simple "Yea" or "Nay" post - at that point, we stop discussing a topic because it's actually relevant to game design, and start just seeing who's viewpoint has the most people shouting "Yea" the loudest." | |
There is no value in a simple "Yea" or "Nay" post - at that point, we stop discussing a topic because it's actually relevant to game design, and start just seeing who's viewpoint has the most people shouting "Yea" the loudest." Those are two different things. If the agreement or disagreement sparks a flame war, you should intervene. That's your job. It's not your job to delete posts that might lead to a flame war because any post could lead to a flame war. You have to deal with problems as they happen, you can't delete valid and legitimate posts just because you're afraid they might lead to a problem. To be clear, the problem here isn't the person saying "I agree" but how others react to it. If a simple statement like that can make someone throw a fit, you should take action against the fit-thrower. Most of the time, no fits will be thrown, so if you take action against the person saying "I agree", 99% of the time you're creating a problem instead of avoiding a problem. | |
So in the case of someone's topic being disrupted, it's actually the OP's fault for daring to post a topic on our forums? Come now, that's patently absurd.
It is the duty of a poster not to be disruptive, not the duty of everyone else to sit and take it. Every instance I've seen of someone simply going: (Sometimes without even bothering to add the "This.")SomeGuy's StatmentThis Has been an instance that added nothing at all to a thread, except SomeGuy gets to feel smug because someone laughed at his joke at the expense of someone else in the topic. | |
Posts agreeing with ridiculous jokes when they are completely off-topic is grounds for deletion. However, if someone states an opinion and you agree and have nothing to add, I would say "I agree." It's moral support and it also strengthen's that person's side of the "debate".
Say for instance an argument about libraries like with Falacy (Except imagine Falacy is someone less stubborn). If most of BYOND posts (Or +1's) in agreement, there's a higher chance that [pseudo]Falacy will submit to the public dominance. Deathguard, you are pointing out good things, but they are just things that are trying to escape the point. Just because there are some "This." posts that are unnecessary does not mean that all of the "I agree." posts are. | |
Just because there are some "This." posts that are unnecessary does not mean that all of the "I agree." posts are. I've yet to see one that isn't. If I start seeing a proliferation of appropriate, useful +1/I agree posts I might be persuaded to change my mind, but as it stands, I consider "+1-ing" basically less helpful than not saying anything at all. However, if someone states an opinion and you agree and have nothing to add Then they don't need to add anything. If you have nothing to say, don't say anything. If we're debating design, it should be about ongoing discussion and refinement, rather than someone stating something and people just going "Yep, that's right, do that." It shouldn't be a debate; it's not about who's idea "wins" - we have polls for that. If you see a general idea that sounds feasible you should either add to it in a technical/useful way, or just not argue against it. Just going "I agree with that guy" means the topic stagnates; if it's really the case that nobody has anything useful to add, the topic should be closed. If most of BYOND posts (Or +1's) in agreement If you want to get the rest of the community to pick A or B for you, make a poll about A and B. It's moral support and it also strengthen's that person's side of the "debate". The point of the boards we're talking about isn't to boost someone's ego because they're 'right,' it's to work on ideas, and on theory, to improve it generally. It's a design philosophy section; there isn't a "right answer" 99# of the time. Questions with "right answers" belong in Developer Help where there is already functionality for saying "That guy's answer was the most helpful." | |
I can sum this entire thread up real fast like and I can tell you why nothing productive is happening here.
ATHK: I just want to know why the mods are doing some needless deletions! Deathguard: The forums are for business only. I'm always right in my actions and nothing you say will convince me otherwise because Tom didn't say no. Tom: Yay delegation. FA and Albro: Perhaps we can come to some kind of middle ground... Lugia319: Nazis Deathguard: There is no middle ground. And now this board degenerates into a board which is fairly reminiscent of a fangame. The mods are god and they do what they want to do because the owner doesn't really care. The point I keep trying to make is that this path leads to a fangame in which only the mods and random newbs play. The best forum policy is a fairly open policy in which posts aren't deleted just because "they're not business". P.S. - I see the philosophy joke you made there DG. Good job ^_^ I knew I wasn't alone! | |