Wow @ Indigos 1st post. *Cough*Rape*Cough*.

Magic Man's bullshit:

Maybe I misunderstood it, but what you just said it basically you can be "godlike" at programming within a year and the same with pixel art. And because of this I am a fool?

And I can't believe you called Indigo a scam artist (the ideal pixel artist -_-, seriously if there was a "role model" award for pixel artists it would be given to him), you must be out of your fruity mind. Have you seen his work? -_- He's like a demon, it's the people like him that rape even the GBA artists or wherever your friend works. (P.S. he is a professional).

If you ask me, pixel art is easy actually. I'm not particularly fond of it, but given a year I know I could be better than http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/29178.htm that guy. But pixel art is dull, and I do not like it.

No, are you dyslexic...? Reread it. Some people are gifted and can be good within a year. Magic, notice the yellow highlight in "Fool". It's the artists name, I wasn't calling you a Fool but obviously given the circumstances I won't deny the fact.

I mean, you just said with your own mouth "I could make something like Fools piece within a year". Which just honestly makes you look retarded. Given the fact that you don't even understand art. You couldn't even touch me with a decades worth of practice nevermind Fool or Indigo.

I don't know why you talk about things you don't understand. You don't see anything when you look at art because you weren't born an artist. And even if you did try it out, your judgement is so terrible(it's very "altered" to put it nicely) it would reflect in your work. And man I wouldn't mess around like that, I'm dead serious.

Look at these messages I'm getting. Please just stop for the sake of the Byond community. -_-

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8981/picture18xl1.png

Im pretty sure getting feedback from someone who is currently active in the industry means game over for anyone saying anything different on this matter.

Magic Man, you strike me as incredibly arrogant and whiney at this point. For Christs sake, you use RPG maker turf for Generiquest.

As its been said before, its true that 500 dollars being charged for that image is much too high.

Calypson, nice to see you over here on BYOND, I always appreciate seeing someone in the industry posting based on thier experience. I myself am majoring in game design, as id like to be a technical artist.

Calypson wrote:

The Magic Man,

Proposition for you...

If you are up for it I will pay you $20 to complete those 70 frames of animation you spoke of within 2 hours. and I will time you.

It's not much in terms of industry standard, but since you have no prior experience and you say you can do this in 2 hours - this is quite the deal. $10/hr. (payable via paypal, of course)

And that is 6 frames of run animation per direction on an isometric grid (up, up-left, left, down-left, and down. Flips not necessary) plus an idle frame for each direction - for both a male and female character. 26x40 pixels, 8 colors. (female should be more feminine run cycle) Equating to 70 frames - submitted in an animation strip in 8-bit indexed-color png format. First index must be transparent magenta rgb(255,0,255)

I will tell you one last specification before you officially start as to make sure you don't jump the gun.

Up for some extra cash?

I'll make you a deal since as you said, I have no prior experience. $300 and you've got a deal. (If an artist can charge outrageous prices, I figure I can too)

Though :[ I have to say you are making things unfair.
I said a 32x32 sprite, and it was to be used as a template, which means colour is not needed.
Also, since I am not some fancy pants artist, and the format you are asking for is not something I should be expected to know. Nor do I have any art software outside of MS Paint, which I am pretty sure cannot do transparent PNGs, and I am not going to pay for any software like this either. So a free alternative which can do this would be nice!

But yeah, provided everything above is provided I could romp through a request like that in 2 hours.

The Magic Man wrote:

Then again, I am no psychologist, and wouldn't understand all these artists, who all seem to share the same sort of superiority complex.

Wow, the irony...? Have you seen the developer boards? It's a constant battle for intelligence among programmers trying to prove how awesome they are. I'm starting to feel your age is responsible for the lack of thought put into your posts.

It's not that I am dyslexic, it is that your English in that sentance was just plain bad.

Translation with dummy assistance:
"Programing is NOT pixel art. UNlike in programming you could start on your first year and be Godlike."...Notice the UN, it wouldn't be there if what you said was true.

"Look at this guy Fool (WITH the yellow Link -_-), He was among the top pixel artists over at PJ even on his first year"...You really think I'm talking in 3rd third person? Really, unless you're a top artist I think you shall understand. -_-

Firstly, don't blame my English for your lack of comprehension skills.

Secondly, there's obviously more to art then what you know (or are capable of knowing given your narrow mindset), and it's that kind of ignorance that is to blame for why I believe you will stay stagnant in ability.

You've just admitted you're clueless when it comes to the art world (dude doesn't even accept color fonts on his blog). Infact you're about as far from an artist as you can get. You don't understand those artists because we see the world differently from you. And no I didn't use my "psychic" powers, I used simple reasoning skills. You don't understand art.

And if you think you do...Well then, prove it and take Indigos challenge. Until then like Amon said, it's bullshit.

It is possible to make a 70-frame icon with 8 dir in less than 10 minutes... though just not a very good one ;D (Edit: and by this, I mean a really crappy one)

Example: a blob moving side to side (left to right and vice-versa) by one pixel.

(The reason why it can be done through < 10 minutes is by having one state done (or eight, one for each dir), make DM create a new instance, shift it, add to a main icon file, repeat until 70 frames are done).

My decapitation scene (for Dead Man Walking) was done using the above, though because it required more detail (blood dripping, head falling appropriately) and learning how to do the above trick), it took at least 1 hr... meh, there I go babbling off again.

Though 70 frames of good animation... well, I would be surprised if someone can do a really good job in two hours. I am sure it is possible, just not fun.

The Magic Man wrote:

And that is any worse that artists how?

Thats the point of my reply. You don't see me originally going "Oh programmers think they know everything". When there are people in other professions that do the same thing. You fail at generalizations mainly because you speak recklessly and say anything if you think it'll prove a point.

Like I said, BAD ENGLISH.
"Look at this guy Fool" could easily be mistaken for "look at this guy, you fool".

Bad English? More irony. Just because the name may be misleading is no reason to be ignorant. Considering you can easily spot out half a dozen hints in there you need to strengthen your own literature skills.

If "Look at this guy Magic, he was among the top..." Makes sense. Then how doesn't the substitution of "Fools" name?? For christ sake the F was in caps! and freaken cloaked in yellow html. And you obviously clicked the link so you should have seen AUTHER:"FOOL". Wow, "I'm a 15 year old who cannot be wrong part two?". I love how you're criticizing people who have better literary skills then even your own when most of the time you're sitting here typing in poetry rather then constructing normal paragraphs.

You artists have just as narrow a mindset as I do. I don't think art is worth as much as you artists think it is. What exactly is the difference in our mindset other than price? What makes your mindset less narrow and ignorant than mine? The fact that you are an ARTIST? (Superiority complex again, hahaha)

You can't conclude all artists are as narrow as you are because right now you don't see any talking about things they don't even understand going "oh, programming is pointless". I won't insult programmers by generalizing them with someone as insignificant as you. Especially since most programmers are usually intellectual individuals who understand money and value when it comes to game development.

Also, how is my narrow mindset going to make my skill stagnant... Actually which skills?
My art skills? Damn right, if I wanted to be an artist I'd draw. I don't even own a pencil, which says just how much I am bothered about my art skills.
My programming/game making skills? Don't much care about them either. They are a hobby, nothing more. But even then, how would you know whether they are improving or not (which by the way they are, all the time at that).

Are you delusional? You're the one claiming you have any art skills. Of course you don't have any. How can I tell? That "narrow mindset". In one post you're saying you don't care about art, another post you're saying you could be the best, you post with that "woulda, coulda, shoulda" crap. The world doesn't work like that, just because you pick up a pencil doesn't mean all of a sudden you'll be a good artist. What good is your own opinion when everyone else is saying you suck? When I teach beginners they always go "Wow, I didn't know there was so much more to art"...Prior, they knew little. But you right now? You don't know or see a damn thing (more like you refuse too). Your mentality would be an enormous handicap which is why I conclude you would struggle as an artist. I didn't ask about your programming/game making skills and given your reasoning skills I wouldn't care; Art is the focal point.

So... Because my blog doesn't use a fancy colour scheme I don't know anything about art? Makes sense if you ask me.
And, superiority complex again! How exactly does an artist see the world diferently from other people? Is your vision of the world FANTASTICAL or something like that? Sure you aint been tripping on drugs or something. Because I am pretty sure you see the world in the exact same way as I do.

(No, not the color scheme of your blog, I'm stating you disallow people use to use font colors which would make large posts like this easier to read.) Superiority complex? Don't jump into things you don't know about then start crying when people who do these kind of things on daily basis are making you look retarded. You don't see me telling Fizz he has a superiority complex just because he's letting people know what programming really is. Many people do things because they find beauty in them that other people wouldn't understand. I remember Vermolius(Programmer) showed me a code strip and told me that is what he found beauty in but you don't see me trying to ridicule something I don't understand.

The renewed artists observation skills are more intensified then the average person. Ex. You see a calender at the wall and it's a sunny day, the curtains are open. An artist is noticing how the shine reflects off any even "slightly" bent angles on the pager and how the light is hitting that calender to make it look like a calender(same thing goes for living things like human anatomy). They observe the shadows that are being cast off (and from what angle). They appreciate the smooth texture and watch how the colors are manipulated by this new condition.

Now to you, it's just a calendar. You can claim you notice all this shit (without even thinking about it) whenever you look at a calendar, a laptop or anything. But obviously that too would be bullshit considering you don't see much when you look at art. Actually, the average person probably sees alot more then you; Art isn't dull, just your personality.

P.S. Its obviously you who has the inferiority complex.

The Magic Man wrote:

I sumerized everything you wrote.
I'd reply to what you wrote, but I really can't be bothered. Hahaha. You are also really kind of annoying you know?

Speaking of bad English, it's summarized*. Even kids know It's a pain in the ass to counter logic with bullshit, you can only think of so much. The most annoying thing in the world is people thinking they could actually amount to something in other peoples realm(in this case art) that most people in there would find difficult. You basically said what we do is easy and that you're better then all of us when you don't know crap and have done crap. It's one thing to post with enthusiasm towards artists but after you said those lines you deserved every insult thats thrown at you.

As far as I'm concerned I shouldn't have bothered with that explanation. You're far too dense to understand the phrase "artist's see the world differently". And if you think being "different" means they are doing something better then you, then thats your problem; see inferiority complex. Considering the ignorance of the creator I don't think this blog post is even worth any of these peoples time.

I am really not interested in the flame war here, so I've been trying to keep my posts to the point.

The offer I made The Magic Man (which he seems to have declined) was not a genuine request for a service obviously, though I would have paid it. It was more to make a point about the time required to make a quality piece of artwork and the things that go on behind it. -A sort of 'put your money where your mouth is' type of example. Even he would not accept his "reasonable" price range. I think he realized that it would take much longer than 2 hours to accomplish - otherwise he would have easily accepted the offer of $15/hr.

The point I want to make is Professional Artists charge what they do because people pay it, and it's worth the cost. Simple as that. The open market has a way for balancing these types of things. Just in the same way you could hire a not-so-great musician for some music, you can also get a not-so-great artist. Just look around the art forums, and you'll find some willing souls.

on the extreme example, Sean Beeson charges roughly $800 per minute of song. He is a very high quality composer, and can charge much higher prices - just as a seasoned pixel artist might do.

Here is an interesting read about pixel art pricing - discussing the same issue we are now...
pixelartist salary


Lummox JR:
I find it hard to misjudge the industry I am currently in. The salary links i provided are national averages - not based on an area of high cost of living (though I will admit, all art jobs i've had thus far have been in such areas; NYC and SF). I will admit that my programmer estimations may have been inflated due to the company I'm currently in and me never having been paid for programming.

Anyway, I've given my input, and a lot of it seems to be ignored by the poster, but I'll leave it at that.

-Dan

The Magic Man wrote:

Blah blah. I don't particularly remember saying art was easy. What I said was it's not as hard as you make it out to be, nor is it worth paying so much money for either.

Right, like over here. http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/3213/picture17es9.png

Also, stop acting like you some how know me. 
How do you know exactly how good or bad I am as an artist? ...{insert lame life story} I'd go and set up my old computer, and show you some of the pictures, maybe that'd shut you up.

I never said I knew you, but I obviously know artists. Anyone who has sounded as brainless as you towards the subject wouldn't have a clue. Hence the quote, "Your mentality would be an enormous handicap which is why I conclude you would struggle as an artist." Also, I really don't care about your life story and if you wanted prove anything you would have accepted the challenge.

Nope, you've pretty much implied every single time that artists are different, and that somehow makes them superior.

I merely implied they look into things more. Artists are observers and "see-ers" if I should put it simple.

How could that possibly mistaken for anything other than artists see things in a better way that other people?


Easy, by taking the time to read the question and understand these people instead of reading it like a child looking to get offended by everything. If I meant "better" I would have used that word. And drop the superiority complex routine, you've said it atleast 6 times in this thread, only someone with the inverse disease would do that.