The reason why BYOND isn't too popular.
It is simple really. Compared to programs of a similar nature BYOND... SUCKS... Badly at that.
Go here and compare http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?act=idx
Game Maker is a program that is about as easy to use as BYOND, and designed with the same idea in mind "make games easily". It does that, and I use to use Game Maker a long time ago, back then it wasn't too great, sure it could do things but it was slow and didn't have a lot of functions it could have had (such as graphical or online functions). Three years later, it has all these functions AND MORE.
Seriously, go and look at some of the games and tools on those forums, some of them are mind blowing (advanced AIs, physics you'd expect to see in a commercial game, highly advanced graphical effects and more).
Game Maker is about the same level of program as BYOND, easy to use, quick to produce results but it sacrifices a lot of things you could do with a real programming language. But everything BYOND can do so can Game Maker, ONLY BETTER.
An example would be Game Makers online features. BYOND is suppose to specialize in this area. But Game Maker can do so much more and with a few plugins it is just as easy (if not easier) to do.
Game Makers community is also a million times better than BYONDs.
I used Game Maker as an example, because it is one of the less technical and less powerful programs out there for making games... And if Game Maker is this much better then just imagine what the really powerful programs are like...
(Game Maker is admittedly not "free" so to say. And without paying a small fee you don't get all the functions it offers. But that fee is the same as the price of a BYOND Membership.)
:[ When you compare something like BYOND to other programs of a similar nature... It really doesn't compare at all (unless you are comparing it to a program that is 8 years old).
Maybe this is the reason BYOND is not exactly growing at a fast rate. Because the only "advantage" BYOND has over any of these other programs is that you can make a "game" in about 5 minutes with it (if you want to call your average anime game a game that is). Other than that BYOND is (in comparison) so old and outdated it is just not worth using.
Maybe bring BYOND up to a level that compares with these other makers would make people more likely to use BYOND... But that would take a hell of a lot of work.
ID:43637
 Jun 1 2008, 8:06 am
|
|
So I guess you're leaving us for that?
Get out you filthy mongrel :( | |
GhostAnime wrote:
So I guess you're leaving us for that?Not leaving anywhere, just taking a break from the interbutt until I get my new computer up and running. Which will probably be in a week or two. (Though technically, I wouldn't be leaving BYOND. I started off 7 years ago using Game Maker, then moved to BYOND. So I'd be going back to Game Maker, which I originally used). *BYOND went from 500 players online to 5000 players online in a few years...That's progress.Game Maker went from getting thousands of downloads a year to getting millions of downloads a month in only a few years. But the whole point is. JUST COMPARE THE TWO. They are worlds apart, and even if you don't want to admit it, Game Maker is just so much better than BYOND (except for maybe the general layout of Game Maker, which has always been awkward). And when there are programs out there like that... Why will people even bother using BYOND? | |
I went to that site and saw a forum. That was enough for me to not want to explore it anymore.
| |
IcewarriorX wrote:
I went to that site and saw a forum. That was enough for me to not want to explore it anymore. http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshotiz0.png http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1199/ chainsawbutcherrn9.png http://www.65millionand1bc.com/screenshots.php http://www.yoyogames.com/games/show/34591 A few random examples that took me... A minute to find. If you look around a bit you'll probably see a lot better. Some of the technical demos in particular are amazing. | |
I was looking at game maker again recently but didn't release that it's improved on the networking side of things. Simple question, is it capable of having comparable networking to BYOND (preferably with client-side support for various things)
And try exploring http://www.yoyogames.com/ rather than the developers forum on the site. It has the "zomg3Dwtfbbq" ability it seems, I also notice real games rather than Narutobleach Z. | |
Nick231 wrote:
I was looking at game maker again recently but didn't release that it's improved on the networking side of things. Simple question, is it capable of having comparable networking to BYOND (preferably with client-side support for various things) With certain DLLs it's networking capabilities surpass anything BYOND could hope to do. (39dll I think it is called). If you look around the forums and website you'll see a lot of online games, some claiming to have had hundreds of people online at once. | |
Capabilities or not, from what I'm seeing it just doesn't look that fun to me. Maybe it's just me, but the variety looks cheesy and lacking depth.
| |
The Magic Man wrote:
Nick231 wrote: Well, it's definitely much more free-form, but its a bit more difficult to get into. It's more or less windows only, and you need a good deal of C/C++/etc. language knowledge to do much. Definitely much more powerful, but it has a much larger learning curve to go with it (which is probably what has stopped the hoard of anime noobs we have here on BYOND from taking over there). | |
IcewarriorX wrote:
Capabilities or not, from what I'm seeing it just doesn't look that fun to me. Maybe it's just me, but the variety looks cheesy and lacking depth.That is pretty funny, because again, compared to the BYOND community the variety of games is massive. All kinds of sport games. Adventure (both zelda style and point and click). RPG (action, turn based, online and so on) Stratergy (turn based and real time) Board games Racing Action (over head shooters, shooting, fighting and so on) Arcade (tons of these) Platform games (lots of styles, some unique and make use of gimmicks, others imitate games like Mario or Sonic almost perfectly) And the list goes on. BYOND variety pales in comparison (lets face it, BYOND variety is "anime" and "not anime"). Well, it's definitely much more free-form, but its a bit more difficult to get into. It's more or less windows only, and you need a good deal of C/C++/etc. language knowledge to do much. Definitely much more powerful, but it has a much larger learning curve to go with it (which is probably what has stopped the hoard of anime noobs we have here on BYOND from taking over there). The actual language Game Maker uses is no harder to learn than BYOND. And in a lot of cases it is actually a lot easier to use and do things with. The program it's self takes a short while to get use to, but is fairly user friendly (more so than BYOND). And it also has drag and drop features, which provided you understand common sense can easily be used. But as I previously said. Making a game in BYOND takes minutes as you get more or less everything you need off the bat (a working interface, inventory, movement and other very basic systems), Game Maker provides you with a blank canvas and getting a game working from scratch takes a while longer (making a system in Game Maker that mimics BYONDs mob/obj contents is not easy for example). So basically, in terms of difficulty they are both about the same. BYOND just gives you a lot more predefined systems, Game Maker doesn't. | |
The Magic Man wrote:
Maybe bring BYOND up to a level that compares with these other makers would make people more likely to use BYOND... But that would take a hell of a lot of work. What do you mean by bring it up to the next level? We finally got interfaces which makes the games more professional looking, what else do you want? | |
"(unless you are comparing it to a program that is 8 years old)."
BYOND is 10 years old, isn't it? It has the same base as it always has. I don't give a shit if it doesn't make 3D games. | |
I believe it's about 11 years old now.
But I agree with you Bwgmon, if you rather make 3D games then BYOND is not for you, I doubt GameMaker is for you also. Instead of complaning why not leave? | |
Bwgmon
"(unless you are comparing it to a program that is 8 years old)." BYOND is 10 years old, isn't it? It has the same base as it always has. I don't give a shit if it doesn't make 3D games. 172.16.0.1 wrote: I believe it's about 11 years old now. You people obviously don't understand the differences in a program like BYOND and a program like Game Maker. Firstly, Game Maker is just as old as BYOND, so you can't try to use that as an argument. Secondly, this isn't about 3D games at all, and I didn't mention them anywhere. And finally, having basic interfaces is nice, but it is not exactly an amazing defining feature. More or less every other program does this as standard. What I am talking about is more useful and advanced features. Game Maker has... Tons of mathematical features that have lots of uses and could easily be implamented in BYOND. Most of them can be done in BYOND now, but having them as a built in feature is much nicer and anyone can use them (and that isn't even mentioning preformance improvements). Lots of string manipulation functions. Again, useful, can be put into BYOND and can be made in BYOND. No reason for them to not be a standard function really. Lots of motion planning functions, again extremely useful but hard to do features. Collision checking. BYOND has this, but it is horrid and tile based. Maybe it can do pixel based collision checking, I have never tried or seen it done. But this would make pixel based movement and so on much easier to do. The ability to activate and deactivate things. This can be done in BYOND and it is recommended that it is done in most games. A highly, highly useful feature, so why not make it easier to do? Full keyboard, mouse and joystick control. BYOND has decent mouse and keyboard functionality. But the ability to map keys and mouse buttons with BYOND would be useful (so would joystick/pad support). Game Makers graphical support is insane. You can dynamically display, edit, load and save sprites, backgrounds, fonts, surfaces and more. Try to dynamically generate an explosion, a bolt of lightning or make destructable terrain in BYOND (similar to a Worms game). BYON can't even do such basic functions as drawing a line :[ All these graphical functions can drastically improve a game. Game Makers file handling functions can do all sorts of things not easy to do in BYOND, and even make use of the Widows registry. All easy and simple to use but have massively use in a game (such as saving and loading things). Game Maker has some highly useful data structures that people obviously want in BYOND because they are compensating for their lack of them by making libraries instead. Things like queues, stacks, lists, maps, priority queues and grids are all highly useful and standard in Game Maker. A particle system is also standard in Game Maker, another highly useful system for making games nice looking. Game Maker also can do a lot of things BYOND should be able to do (BYOND can maybe do some of these, but it sure isn't easy). It has a nice easy to use map maker where I can choose things like my own grid and tile size (not stuck with 32x32). A simple to use graphical editor, again not limited to any particular size. The ability to change the frame rate I want a game to run at, not stuck at a constant 10 frames per second. And more. There is no reason why BYOND couldn't be improved to make action based games actually work in it (BYOND at the moment can't do action games for shit, it is obviously intended to make slower paced or turn based games). There is hundreds more things I could list that BYOND would hugely benefit from. But whatever! If you think BYOND would be better off using the "10 year old" base it has and always has used then fine. But don't expect BYOND to become any more used than it is now. Lets face it, people want something that is upto date, not 10 years old. Seems to be the only people who actually use BYOND are those that are to stupid or lazy to make their own games (anime group), or those that are too scared to crawl out of their cave and use something that is a lot more upto date (everyone else). Some people however (like me) want BYOND to get better, they want it to have all these nice things and to grow and be widely used. But I guess these people are a small minority in the BYOND community (provided I am the only person I have seen who wants this, and more or less everyone else will argue with and insult you if you do want this). | |
The Magic Man wrote:
Seems to be the only people who actually use BYOND are those that are to stupid or lazy to make their own games (anime group), or those that are too scared to crawl out of their cave and use something that is a lot more upto date (everyone else). Actually I love how people tend to generalize everyone. So I'll do it for you, I dislike people who tend to complain about software that is free of use but still stays with this software for some odd reason (The Magic Man). You need to understand that the BYOND staff does this on their free time; they do not get paid a lot either. If you want to see improvement faster I suggest forking up a lot more cash. I do not see why you’re complaining about BYOND either, it’s not like anyone will take this post seriously and add the features you’re begging for. Why not leave and use GameMaker? | |
Truth. You're not going to convince me to join a site that didn't capture my attention in the first ten seconds by telling me about how "much more advanced" it is. That's like Nish explaining to me why the Wii is better than the PS3.
| |
172.16.0.1 wrote:
The Magic Man wrote: The only hope of change is for things to be brought up. Being free isn't an excuse for being sub-par. There's plenty of stuff out there that's free and is great, some even widely used as more or less an industry standard. Keeping a project barely treading water with a 1.5 man crew was definitely a poor move for BYOND. BYOND itself... it's a sinking ship. If not for the Anime crowd, it would have been at the bottom a long time ago. | |
I highly doubt BYOND would have "sunk" if there was no anime crowd. I believe we would have better developers here with much better games. People would not come here thinking BYOND is better suited for anime but would see you could possible make a great indie game which could earn money.
I also don’t know where you’re coming from with saying BYOND is sub-par. Though, this is an opinionated discussion, not fact. There are really just a few game programs, which I know of, that do such things as BYOND: GameMaker and RPGMaker. Comparing BYOND to any of them is like comparing apples to oranges. Sure BYOND has its downs but it also has its advantages over GameMaker as Gamer has its advantages over BYOND. Like I said before, this is just an opinionated discussion and we can argue for days about this. | |
172.16.0.1 wrote:
Actually I love how people tend to generalize everyone. So I'll do it for you, I dislike people who tend to complain about software that is free of use but still stays with this software for some odd reason (The Magic Man). I also love how people are willing to accept whatever they are fed without any hint of a complaint. BYOND could (and should) be a lot better than it currently is. Sitting there and just accepting that isn't going to achieve anything. Maybe whining and complaining wont, but at least the BYOND staff will know people want a better BYOND. You need to understand that the BYOND staff does this on their free time; they do not get paid a lot either. If you want to see improvement faster I suggest forking up a lot more cash. I do not see why you’re complaining about BYOND either, it’s not like anyone will take this post seriously and add the features you’re begging for. Why not leave and use GameMaker? Funny fact. Game Maker has been the same was as BYOND since it started. From it's first version until it's very latest Game Maker was made by a single person, who has a full time job (professor at a university) AND a family. Only recently was Game Maker taken over by Yoyo games, and all they have done so far is give it a nice community and host a contest or two. And like I said. If you don't be vocal about these things you want to see in BYOND you wont get them. Without them... It's not like BYOND is going to improve at any noticeable rate. (Lets face it, BYOND doesn't improve at a fast rate at all. In the 7 years I have been here the only large or noteworthy feature BYOND had gotten is interfaces, everything else has been bug fixes or small, single features). BYOND could (and should) be better than it is, and if it hopes to grow it is going to have to offer something it's competition doesn't already (which it doesn't). If you ask me it is about time BYOND started trying to reach it's actual potential. Truth. You're not going to convince me to join a site that didn't capture my attention in the first ten seconds by telling me about how "much more advanced" it is. That's like Nish explaining to me why the Wii is better than the PS3. And what convinced you to join the BYOND website and use BYOND exactly? BYOND doesn't, and never has had any particularly noteworthy or impressive games. And the only "game" it has to show off on the download page doesn't even exist yet (at least not in a publically avaliable and playable form), and who knows if it ever will. Game Maker on the other hand has a lot of very impressive games that can be played. If I was totally new to game making and had never done it before in my life and was given the choice between using Game Maker or BYOND based purely on what they had to show off... It wouldn't even be a choice, Game Maker would win every time. And I am willing to bet most people feel the same way. Which is what this was all about. If BYOND doesn't improve enough so that is can compete with these other programs (which at the moment it isn't doing very well) then it is never going to get much bigger than it is now. | |
*BYOND went from 500 players online to 5000 players online in a few years...That's progress.