ID:42299
 
Take a system - say, throwing two dice. The set of all possible results of that action is the 'phase space' of that system - in the case of throwing two dice, it's the numbers 2 through 12. This definition is a little simplistic, but it'll do for the purposes to which I'm putting the concept. Wikipedia has a more precise definition.

So, phase space is simply the set of all states of a system - take every variable that can change, stick it on an axis, and that's your space. Obviously, for a reasonably complicated system, that's going to be massive - a set of N particles has a phase space with 6N axes.

Let's consider the most massive phase space of all - the phase space of universes. Take any variable that a universe could conceivably vary upon - say, the value of G, or the existence of gravity - and stick it on an axis. In short, imagine the set of all possible universes.

You know something about the world when we can narrow down which bit of that phase space we exist in. If you can say "Our world appears to have gravity", you've immediately cut out the infinitely many universes which do /not/ have gravity. When you can say "Our universe has gravity, and it works like this", you've cut out all the universes that have gravity that works like that.

Unfortunately, certainty with these statements is very difficult. There's a whole set of universes that /appear/ to have gravity that works like this, but actually don't.

Science sidesteps that issue - instead of saying "The universe is definitely in this set, we can ignore everything else", science says "The universe is definitely not in that set, we can ignore it". There are less universes that appear not to have gravity that works like this that have gravity that works like this than the opposite. You gain some explanatory power.

There is, however, a catch - science can never eradicate that universe in which you are the only being that exists and everything is a figment of your imagination, because that variable is unobservable. The concept is unfalsifiable.

But we don't worry too much about that, because it also means that that concept - solipsism - has no explanatory power.

Let me explain further - if you know that we are in a universe without slood, we also know that we are not in a universe with slood that works like this, that, or the other. In short, there is a constraint on the possible universes in phase space - they must be consistent. That means that we can derive further information about the universe from simple observations. If we know via deductive argument that in a universe where the strong nuclear force works like this, the weak nuclear force works like that, and we show that the weak nuclear force doesn't act like that at all, we have excluded some of the points on the strong-nuclear-force axis from the set of universes that we could be in. That is because phase space is not completely full - there are 'empty' points, where a combination of variables cannot possibly exist.

Solipsism has no such 'empty' points that we can observe - it must not, or we could determine whether or not solipsism is in the set of universes we might live in by observing the empty point. For all possible universes, there is another possible universe which is exactly the same, except that it's got a different value on the solipsism axis. Solipsism is a concept which cannot help us further understand the world, because it does not cut out anything from phase space.

I would allege that god, as a general concept, is the same as solipsism - it is unfalsifiable, and, therefore, it has no explanatory power - it does not remove any points in phase space from the set of universes we might exist in.

Consider the phase space of gods. It's pretty big. Certainly, some of these gods are falsifiable - if Zeus exists, for example, Mount Olympus must have certain properties. We can observe that Mount Olympus does not have the properties suggested, and, thus, conclude that Zeus does not exist. The concept of Zeus also, therefore, has explanatory power - if Zeus exists, we know Mount Olympus must be in a given state - some part of phase space is excised.

Consider the Christian god. He/she/it certainly doesn't require Mount Olympus be in a certain state, but I would allege that the combination of some of his claimed properties requires the world to be in a certain state - that would be the problem of evil - regardless, I think we can agree that the Christian god is, also, falsifiable, and thus has explanatory power - his/her/its existence makes a difference to the world.

But consider god as a general concept. Consider all of god-space. Is there anything in common between all gods that could feasibly be observable?

I do not think so. I can certainly come up with a deity that exists, but cannot be detected by any means. God is, at its most general, unfalsifiable.

And thus, this general concept of god has zero explanatory power - alleging that a god of some sort exists tells us nothing about the universe, unless you add additional properties that make that god falsifiable.

I would argue that as the existence of an unfalsifiable god has no impact on the world - much like the truth or falsity of solipsism - then I should pay no attention to the concept.

Of course, that does not mean that, say, the Christian god should be implicitly ignored. But then, I think he's been falsified.
Your logic has some flaws. If you say God is unfalsifiable by science, you cannot simultaneously say he has been falsified. You've argued that God is both falsifiable and unfalsifiable. Pick one. Your rationale for saying God is falsifiable is quite thin at best, but I'm being generous: I see no actual solid point backing that statement up. And if God is falsifiable, then you've left out any proof of falsehood, which is kind of a sticking point for making a conclusion.

You also must consider the flip side: The non-existence of God is a falsifiable concept. In the absence of such falsification for you, though, I don't think there's much you can go on to deduce anything about the existence of God one way or the other though.
Uh, LJR... do you know what a solipsism is? Combine the concept of solipsism and perhaps Schroedinger's Cat, and maybe Jp's point might emerge for you.


Lummox JR wrote:
Your logic has some flaws. If you say God is unfalsifiable by science, you cannot simultaneously say he has been falsified. You've argued that God is both falsifiable and unfalsifiable. Pick one. Your rationale for saying God is falsifiable is quite thin at best, but I'm being generous: I see no actual solid point backing that statement up. And if God is falsifiable, then you've left out any proof of falsehood, which is kind of a sticking point for making a conclusion.

You also must consider the flip side: The non-existence of God is a falsifiable concept. In the absence of such falsification for you, though, I don't think there's much you can go on to deduce anything about the existence of God one way or the other though.

I'm aware of solipsism, yes. I'm saying, however, that Jp is simultaneously arguing the unfalsifiability, falsifiability, and falsification of God. There is actually no basis in his argument for falsification, and he can't say the concept is both falsifiable and not.

I don't put much stock in Schroedinger's Cat as an idea at all. It's based on the idea of a completely closed system where probability is truly random and separated from determinacy. Even in the strange realm of quantum physics I'd call that bogus.
Jp is trying to put a framework around whether "God" is an observable or an "unobservable" system (i.e. a solipsism).

Let's use your brain for instance. If you believe in God, then it is observable that you believe in God, and you can make it observable by using your larynx and a rich contextual set of sounds and utterances to communicate that belief to the observer.

So how does an observer test the existance of "God"? Well, if he is a solipsism, it is impossible, hence it is unfalsifiable. If "God" is not, then he is falsifiable.

This leads to a well known paradox in regards to all deities. If there is no causal means of "God" being observable, then the concept is statistically meaningless. That is, in layman's terms, any of a billion people can construct a billion solipsisms to effectively make any one concept meaningless.

If the Christian "God" concept is observable, then it would have long since debunked like many other "God" concepts have in the past (Apollo does not ride his chariot in the sky, there's not some blacksmith like guy forging steel 1000 miles below the earth, dancing does not make it rain... etc.).

I should have delved in further about Schoedinger's Cat since you didn't connect the dots like I thought you could have. (We'll save the quantum physics part for another thread). So let's take the concept of God, what is state? Well, without opening the box; it's merely a probability function. Yes, if you open the box you will know with more certainty... and therin lies one of Jp's points. That box is unopenable. Couple that with the fact that we don't have ANY observable data, this effectively becomes the definition of a solipsism. Observable systems like decks of cards or Powerball ping pong balls are not parallel to a solipsism because you can disturb the system and observe the results.

So do you get it yet?

You know what you could do is to quote Jp's article, and maybe make a comment after each sentence to note where you're at. It might help clarify his position to you.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. There is no "a solipsism" because it is not an object, but a philosophy; it's like saying "a sarcasm". Solipsism is a philosophy in which only yourself is real. It does not mean an unfalsifiable concept; it merely is one.

I get that you were using Schroedinger's Cat to say that without any data, we can't prove one way or the other. That was obvious. But discarding the bogus idea of the cat being in some arbitrary quantum state, one outcome or the other is certainly true, which we'll know when the box is opened. Hence, "The cat is dead" is a falsifiable concept; opening the box will prove or disprove it.

That said, Jp has effectively said, "God is unfalsifiable", "God is falsifiable", and "God is falsified". The last of these has no argument to back it up. The other two are kind of muddied in his text and in disagreement with each other. His point may be clearer in his own mind, but it hasn't come across because there are some conflicts in it.
You are right, I am misusing the word. Should've looked before I typed...

That being said, stop being willfully ignorant.

Let me dumb it down for you further.

Take a deck of cards.

Put one card on the table. Don't look at the card. What is the card?

That card is ALL 52 CARDS until you turn it over. (or to be more accurate a probability function including all 52 cards in the deck).

Now use the God state of falsifiable and unfalsifiable as two cards in the deck. Jp has very clearly stated "God is unfalsifiable" under one set of conditions, "God unfalsifiable" under another.

Again, I strongly suggest to you to comb through Jp's post.

And your right, his "last argument" of God is falsified has nothing to back it up with... he in fact said so very clearly in his final sentence of his post. Now read the rest of his post...



Lummox JR wrote:
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. There is no "a solipsism" because it is not an object, but a philosophy; it's like saying "a sarcasm". Solipsism is a philosophy in which only yourself is real. It does not mean an unfalsifiable concept; it merely is one.

I get that you were using Schroedinger's Cat to say that without any data, we can't prove one way or the other. That was obvious. But discarding the bogus idea of the cat being in some arbitrary quantum state, one outcome or the other is certainly true, which we'll know when the box is opened. Hence, "The cat is dead" is a falsifiable concept; opening the box will prove or disprove it.

That said, Jp has effectively said, "God is unfalsifiable", "God is falsifiable", and "God is falsified". The last of these has no argument to back it up. The other two are kind of muddied in his text and in disagreement with each other. His point may be clearer in his own mind, but it hasn't come across because there are some conflicts in it.

Lummox, he is unfalsifiable by science, which is what Jp said. What he didn't say is that he has falsified god by science. He falsified him by logic.
Let's see how this logic applies to other stuff. The sun, for instance.

I read many times the scientific claim that the sun is yellow. Since the world is lit by the sun, all I have to do is look around to falsify that claim. What's this? White clouds??? Impossible! If they were lit by a yellow sun, they would be yellow! Ah ha! That proves that the claim that the sun is yellow is false! And therefore, the yellow sun does not exist.

But it would be a jump to go on and conclude that there is no sun.
I may be misreading what Jp said, but then I don't think he made his point clearly in the first place. It looks not like he said God is falsifiable in one set of conditions and unfalsifiable in another, but rather that God is unfalsifiable period, here's a case where that is still true, here's a case where the opposite is true, etc. He just kinda smudged the whole point there, and that's all I'm getting at. His point got obscured by rambling.

And again, I am not buying into the steaming dumpster of BS that is Schroedinger's Cat. If you shuffle a deck of cards, the card is a specific card. The probability function just gives you a mathematical breakdown of what, in the absence of other data, you could guess it to be. In a perfectly randomized deck the odds of the ace of spades being on top are indeed 1/52, but that's because the odds are only telling you that the deck is in one of 52! possible configurations and your data can't narrow that down. The top card isn't all cards; it's the four of diamonds, or the queen of clubs, or whatever, but it's already a specific card even if you don't know what that card is.
Militant athiesm is more annoying than the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Hey guys guess what? You and I are screwed. Athiests statistically live shorter unhealthier lives; we drink more, we smoke more, we have less children and if we get married(because we do that less often too) our marriages more often end in divorce.

Studies on Kibbutzim show that religious kibbutzim have a higher chance of succeeding than non-affiliated kibbutzim . Why? Because when they did a mass study of the workers, the religious people were more likely to compromise and share than the atheists.

Religion obviously serves an evolutionary purpose or it wouldn't have popped up independently throughout the world. It makes people nicer, more communal and gives them healthier lives.


You prove it all by spending your time in a rage making posts like this when you should be living life.

The truth is God has the last laugh.
In my mind, an all-powerful, perfect deity cannot be petty or ignorant. A person that lives a good life, but chooses not to believe in that deity, should no more affront said being for a lack of faith, than a person who has blind faith and leads a good life.

Blind faith will lead humans to slaughter. Look at how fouled up our system is today by organized religion. It's pathetic. In today's world, I really think that a reasonable god would forgive going the opposite way of the flock when misinformation, hate, bigotry, and war are the main tools of the very people who worship that god.

The way I look at it, it's a good subject for debate among friends, but it causes more harm to be involved than the worst possible outcome could be.

And what if I'm wrong? Well, if I'm wrong, god's a tyrannical, childish bitch, and the entire system is unfair. ;P
Ter13 that doesn't follow. The slightest breeze moves a feather, but so does a hurricane. Call it petty, if you will, but the raging winds don't skip over the small stuff. And a hurricane is certainly more powerful than a man, so must we conclude that hurricanes are less ignorant than men?

Or consider a diamond with many flaws compared with one with few flaws. Which one is less ignorant?

Can one oppose "blind faith" but embrace the presumption that there is no God? The pot calling the kettle black?
Worldweaver wrote:
Hey guys guess what? You and I are screwed. Athiests statistically live shorter unhealthier lives; we drink more, we smoke more, we have less children and if we get married(because we do that less often too) our marriages more often end in divorce.


Show me the proof. Right now. I absolutely don't believe you all. The only rates that are likely lower are marriage rates, but even marriage has tax benefits that tend to get atheists to marry, at least in the eyes of the state. And atheists are more likely to get married because of true love, not because their religion tells them they are sinners for not.

You show me some cold hard facts that atheists live short/unhealthier lifes and I might believe you, but I would still need to see how the studies came to that conclusion. I know I drink less than most Americans that legally can. I certainly smoke less than anyone who has ever smoked in their life(AKA I've never smoked in my life), and I don't have a child, but that's because I'm smart enough to know I'm not in a financial situation that would allow me to raise a child in an environment that would be good for the child.
Worldweaver, those statements are unsupported by any source.
http://www.economist.com/science/ displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875666


Wrong, but nice try at cognitive dissonance guys. I run a political blog on this stuff.

EDIT-

I'm not trying to be offensive but everyone needs to get off they're goddamn high horses in religious debates, conservative Christians and atheists.
Lummox, I probably didn't make it clear - the confusion stems from god being the name of the Christian god, and also the name of the concept.

I'm saying god as a general concept - i.e., "There is something out there, who knows what" is unfalsifiable. I am saying that god as in the Christian god - forgives sin, jesus is his only son, etc. - is falsifiable, because such a being has an empirically detectable effect on the world. I doubt I'm the only one to claim that, most Christians would presence-of-god is distinguishable from lack-of-god, I would think.

I've made previous posts about falsification of the Christian god - http://www.byond.com/members/?command=view_post&post=38680 would be an example.

Traztx, I don't understand what you're saying. I don't see how your analogy is at all similar to my logic, or even concerning the same general thing - I was not trying to falsify any particular god, but to show that the concept of god is unfalsifiable - it cannot be disproved - and therefore that it can't tell us anything useful.

World, please stop trolling. I'm being quite polite. It's hardly 'militant' atheism - I'm not pointing a gun at anybody, and I'm not making posts 'in a rage'. I'm just very quietly making a point in a private section of the web that's been set up specifically for that purpose. I honestly can't see how that's remotely similar to knocking on people's doors and asking if they want to learn about the Lord. Doesn't take much time, either, and I enjoy thinking about these issues.

I don't see any actual evidence that atheists drink or smoke more in that article - it's a joke that may or may not be backed up by statistics. My guess is 'not'. Additionally, all the stats I've heard suggest that atheists tend to go through less divorce than the religious. And I'm pretty certain that the prison population in America has a far smaller atheist population than one would expect, given the proportion of atheists in American society.

I very much doubt that many of these statistical questions have been researched thoroughly. And quite frankly, I don't care. Whether religious people are happier and healthier has absolutely no relevance to the existence or not of a god or gods. That is, unless said happiness and health was obvious miraculous intervention - if Christians tended to regularly be miraculously cured of cancer, Christianity would look a lot more believable to me.
That's a nice response, basically summed up into "I don't believe statistics that were verified by scientists", "You are a troll for disagreeing with me" and of course "Haha, they still believe in a fairytale".

It's all too familiar. I'm not going to get into whether or not you are being a "militant athiest" because I hope that people who read your stuff can figure it out for themselves.

What I'm worried about is the bit where you still think I'm trying to prove that Religion is real. While it's patently obvious that I am not.

I would bold this part of the response but that would be obnoxious. No, quite simply, the message I am trying to get through is that no matter how much time you spend posting bulletins, writing blog posts, and intellectually "circle jerking"* with BYONDers(Diggers, Redditers ect.) it doesn't change the fact that there are a plethora of benefits that come with religion.

So I'll say it again, God has the last laugh.


*Not mean to be offensive, it's my term for when a bunch people on the internet basically have a pat on the back "This is X reasons why Y sucks" fest. Without any dissent or attempt at critical thinking by the readers.


Sources:

"In a 2002 study, children who regularly attended religious services were also less likely to smoke."
http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/specialtopic/ smoking-and-smokeless-tobacco/background.html


"Religious People Live Longer Than Nonbelievers

...people who are highly religious tend to live longer than others, a review of more than 40 scientific studies has found...

...increased social support from other members of the religious organization...."

http://www.webmd.com/news/20000809/ religious-people-live-longer-than-nonbelievers

"Religion is among the factors that have been extensively studied. People who attend religious services are healthier, live longer and become less depressed as a result of illness, according to most studies, and they handle stress better."

http://health.discovery.com/centers/aging/staying_young/ spirit.html

"As they expected, they found that the more constraints a religious commune placed on its members, the longer it lasted (one is still going, at the grand old age of 149). But the same did not hold true of secular communes, where the oldest was 40. Dr Sosis therefore concludes that ritual constraints are not by themselves enough to sustain co-operation in a community...

...The researchers' hypothesis was that in religious kibbutzim men would be better collaborators... And that was exactly what happened.

...people who are religious will be seen as more likely to be faithful and to help in parenting than those who are not. That makes them desirable as mates."

"...religious people are a bit less likely to divorce"
http://www.newsminer.com/news/2008/mar/16/ 50-percent-myth-persists-marriages-are-doing-bette/
Jp wrote:
I'm saying god as a general concept - i.e., "There is something out there, who knows what" is unfalsifiable. I am saying that god as in the Christian god - forgives sin, jesus is his only son, etc. - is falsifiable, because such a being has an empirically detectable effect on the world. I doubt I'm the only one to claim that, most Christians would presence-of-god is distinguishable from lack-of-god, I would think.

Certainly many people believe they have seen an effect of God's presence. The fact that you have not doesn't say anything because you could simply be outside of the right sphere to observe the difference. Empirical data is only as good as its source, after all. Stories of miraculous healing, intervention in difficult situations, etc. don't necessarily make it to you because they get heavily filtered out, and the ones you hear you're disinclined to believe. The total absence of such stories would be strong evidence in your favor, but there is no such absence. I fully acknowledge however that the existence of such stories does not prove the opposite.

I've made previous posts about falsification of the Christian god - http://www.byond.com/members/?command=view_post&post=38680 would be an example.

A deeply flawed example. You jump from bullet point to bullet point irrationally in that post. Most specifically, your contention that if God wants to intervene to prevent suffering and can, he necessarily will. There are many things I want to do and can do, but will not.

Logic is actually a fairly rigorous discipline, so the stuff in that post wouldn't really pass muster on any close examination, but that one gap is bigger than most.

I very much doubt that many of these statistical questions have been researched thoroughly. And quite frankly, I don't care. Whether religious people are happier and healthier has absolutely no relevance to the existence or not of a god or gods. That is, unless said happiness and health was obvious miraculous intervention - if Christians tended to regularly be miraculously cured of cancer, Christianity would look a lot more believable to me.

I think you have an unreasonable expectation of what Christians can expect out of life. If anything, suffering and trials have perspective under our belief system that makes them more bearable. God isn't flitting from church to church, dispensing miracles like pixie dust, but neither is he withholding them; I have personally known people who have been cured of grave diseases and injuries, or who have had a job or other need practically fall into their lap when they needed it most (myself included). I have also known some trials to take a toll on people, and to go on when you'd wish they wouldn't (myself included).

None of that is intended to convince you of anything, of course. It's just to say that your belief that having a close relationship with God would open up a favor factory is a bit naive. And since you rely on that favor factory as part of your logic, your logic is based on a false assumption.
Lummox JR wrote:
Certainly many people believe they have seen an effect of God's presence. The fact that you have not doesn't say anything because you could simply be outside of the right sphere to observe the difference. Empirical data is only as good as its source, after all. Stories of miraculous healing, intervention in difficult situations, etc. don't necessarily make it to you because they get heavily filtered out, and the ones you hear you're disinclined to believe. The total absence of such stories would be strong evidence in your favor, but there is no such absence. I fully acknowledge however that the existence of such stories does not prove the opposite.

Ergh, I wasn't typing very well when I wrote that last comment. Couple of missing words made that last sentence unreadable:

"most Christians would think presence-of-god is distinguishable from lack-of-god, I would think."

My point was that the Christian god has a measurable effect on the world, and is therefore falsifiable (by demonstrating that this effect does not occur).

I do not think we would see an absence of such stories, regardless of the existence of a god (well, obviously). People have a tendency to attribute good luck to divine favour and bad luck to bad luck. But I'm sure you're aware of that.

A deeply flawed example. You jump from bullet point to bullet point irrationally in that post. Most specifically, your contention that if God wants to intervene to prevent suffering and can, he necessarily will. There are many things I want to do and can do, but will not.

Logic is actually a fairly rigorous discipline, so the stuff in that post wouldn't really pass muster on any close examination, but that one gap is bigger than most.

I've made a post on the comment thread regarding this.

And yes, I know it's hardly up to the standards of rigorous logical description - I don't really have the understanding of symbolic logic required to do that. Someone else may have produced a rigorous description somewhere. I may look for it. The Problem of Evil isn't my idea, after all.

I think you have an unreasonable expectation of what Christians can expect out of life. If anything, suffering and trials have perspective under our belief system that makes them more bearable. God isn't flitting from church to church, dispensing miracles like pixie dust, but neither is he withholding them; I have personally known people who have been cured of grave diseases and injuries, or who have had a job or other need practically fall into their lap when they needed it most (myself included). I have also known some trials to take a toll on people, and to go on when you'd wish they wouldn't (myself included).

None of that is intended to convince you of anything, of course. It's just to say that your belief that having a close relationship with God would open up a favor factory is a bit naive. And since you rely on that favor factory as part of your logic, your logic is based on a false assumption.

I don't assume for a second that the Christian god must necessarily work like a favour-factory. He certainly could, though. My point is that if we saw evidence of this, it'd be a very strong argument for that particular version of the Christian deity. The lack of such repeated divine intervention strongly suggests that there is no deity which repeatedly and obviously intervenes in people's lives. Maybe he/she/it does it subtly.

The Problem of Evil line of reasoning is slightly different - as I've expressed in the comment thread over there, the idea is that the world will be the best world possible, from god's point of view, and I am arguing that either this is not the case, or god is not worth worshipping.

Worldweaver wrote:
That's a nice response, basically summed up into "I don't believe statistics that were verified by scientists", "You are a troll for disagreeing with me" and of course "Haha, they still believe in a fairytale".

Given that you provided no references for these statistics, I saw no reason to believe them. I called you a troll because you're clearly trolling, and I never said anything even approaching the last comment.

My primary point was that such statistics are suspect, not deeply researched, and prove zero. I do not care about them. I'm sure there are several going various different ways, and I'm also certain that the country the survey is run in is a strong factor in the outcome.

Given the current discussion, I think describing these as 'circle jerks' is a bit much. This is what I want to happen. I don't want people to just agree with me - an argument is both more fun, and more useful. It refines everybody's position.

Unfortunately, my computer is currently having weird network issues, so I'm connecting via a computer with a netfilter, and I probably shouldn't be disabling it (it's not my computer, after all). I can't look at the nytimes article mentioning this smoking study, because it concerns "Smoking/Alcohol". Thank you, stupid netfilter. Probably blocks pages about breast cancer, too.

I find it interesting that you appear to be mostly citing newspaper articles that mention scientific studies. For example, the WebMD article provides me no way to gauge the statistical power of the study in question - it doesn't even give me much I can use to track down the paper in question. Reference the damn scientific study, not a newspaper report. I almost live at university at the moment, I can go look these things up in the library.

The "Discovery Health" article is so vague as to be meaningless, and the "newsminer" article also only makes reference to the quote you've highlighted in passing.

In short, I still see no reason to think that all these wonderful statistics about the benefits of religious belief are true.

There may be some benefits from the society built up around a religion, but not only can that have a dark side - it's very easy to end up the butt of a social group like that - but the benefits are entirely unrelated to religion. I am currently president of SPACED - a science club at my university - and there's a damned strong social component to the club. It would have precisely the same benefits as these religious social groups, I suspect.

Finally, if given the choice between being a happy pig* and a dissatisfied Socrates, I'd pick Socrates every time.
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