Note: I am too lazy to type BYOND Anime every time, so if I say BYOND without specification, I mean BYOND Anime.
My beef lies with the Anime games of BYOND. All the games that have ever shown promise just end up disappointing me in one way or another. My main problems with the games and sometimes their creators are as follows:
-No Level Caps
Yeah, I know that NINJAS and SAMURAI don't have "level caps" in whichever anime they're from. That doesn't mean you can't include them in your game. The lack of caps not only makes it more difficult to balance your game in the long run, but it just isn't friggin' fun. Yeah, there are plenty people that enjoy it. Most of them are the type that play it obsessively and therefore gain a significant stat advantage over the general populace. If you know me, you know that I used to be one of those guys. Even then, I wasn't a big fan of the lack of caps. The only things that help the lack of caps are the frequent pwipes.
Apparently I'm one of the few people that enjoys fighting people on even playing grounds. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy beating people stronger than me just as much as the next guy. What I don't enjoy is knowing that I'm going to have to fight this guy, that isn't very good, seriously every time in order to make up for my lack of stats. That is, unless of course I want to devote more time than him to the inevitably tedious and endless training.
-Training
It sux. Srsly. Climbing mountains? Sounds cool, right? Implementation? Not so cool. I have yet to see a method of training in an Anime game that isn't tedious in the end. A few have shown promise, and a few were fresh and new enough to be interesting for a short while. However, in the end, all of them win the award of hardcore mega tedium.
-Hubris
Just about every creator is too damn proud of their own ideas to take the suggestions of their community. When suggestions ARE taken, they're usually warped to fit the creator's view of things.
Yeah I know, the creator of the game can do whatever they want because it's their game. I just don't really understand the mentality of not taking freely given suggestions that the community thinks would improve the game. I've dabbled in the arts over the years, and I willingly welcomed any suggestions that would help me to improve what I was creating.
Now you may say, "if u gat so meny prablems y dun u jus mak ur oun gaem FAGIT!!!" Well, that's a valid point. It's because I realize that I wouldn't be good for the job. I'm too lazy, I'm too proud of my own ideas, and I'm too god damn lazy. It's much easier to just bitch, whine, and try my best to improve whatever game I'm playing at the moment by making well thought out suggestions. That said, I have one fairly broad suggestion to give anyone making an Anime based BYOND game (not that any of those people will ever happen upon this or anything).
If you're going to emulate anything, emulate MMOs. Not other friggin' BYOND games. That's why BYOND hasn't changed one gosh darn bit, and has the same exact problems it had eight years ago. Sure, those problems are a bit more candy coated than they used to be, but they're all still there.
MMOs have a lot of features that would work wonders in an Anime based game. I'm not saying straight up make it an MMO clone. I'm saying take the general format and meld it with your own ideas and features. That general format includes but is not limited to:
-Killing NPCs for XP
While it's basically another form of tedious training, it's at least LESS tedious than punching a tree for 12 hours. At least this method has you moving around and trying to kill crap. If you're hardcore enough, maybe the NPCs are difficult enough where they even have to worry about not dying!
-Questing for XP
This is one of those areas where you can take a common frame and use it to accentuate your own ideas.
-Dungeons/Instances/Whatever
Same as quests. You can be creative about the maps, NPCs, and storylines associated with these.
-Battlegrounds
Specialized PvP maps. You can go with the classics (CTF, C&H, etc) or try to be creative.
-Items
Can be sold, can be dropped from world NPCs or dungeon NPCs, can be rewarded for PvP. Lots of games do it becuase it adds an amount of depth that is worth the extra effort. Can unlock abilities, alter stats, make you look cool, whatever.
Drop the pride and realize that even though Dungeons, CTF, or "Magical" Items + Anime might not be the most REALISTIC mix, it can be FUN.
The down side is the fact that it'd take a bit of extra work. Thing is, if creators would add LEVEL CAPS, maybe they wouldn't be constantly rebalancing the game and could devote their time to fun and interesting features instead of fixing a game that keeps breaking down every time people get stronger than they thought.
"Well golly, that was perfectly balanced at level 5!"
In the end, this stuff is my own personal preference. When I was a kid I enjoyed the way BYOND games were, but after doing the same training time and time again after 500 wipes over the past near decade, the magic is somehow gone.
While it would be nice to see a BYOND Anime game go this route, I certainly don't expect it. The main thing I've learned of BYOND is that it doesn't learn. The people apparently want the same thing again and again, every single time. The very thing that makes up BYOND--the population--is probably the main factor in what keeps it from evolving. Yes, that includes the people like me who are too lazy to put their ideas into the form of a game.
ID:37949
 Jan 9 2008, 11:47 am (Edited on Jan 9 2008, 12:10 pm)
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Jan 9 2008, 11:51 am
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Lukav
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u r so a genious!!1 i agre completly!
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It's not BYOND that sucks, but BYOND's anime community. None of the respected developers (no, Masterdan is not a respected developer) like the anime games, and a lot of people consider them nothing more than a nuisance. People are always losing their source code, and because it's not an original concept, claiming the game as your is extremely simple, which is something that would be considerably tougher. Blame your ilk for the terrible games on BYOND, but don't blame BYOND itself.
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Ya, when I say BYOND throughout the post I'm talking about the Anime part of BYOND. I tried to make that clear with the very first sentence but I guess the title was just too provocative. Sry.
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This has been said before, but BYOND Anime "developers" don't care. Like the fizz said, many developers do listen to their peers, but again, they're irrelevant to this post. Think about the typical player of these games, and everything else falls into place. They don't care about improvements, because they(the developers) don't have to. And if you can get 310 fans by having nothing more than "OMGZ I LEVELZ IT R FUNZ"*, then why would they try? And any time a developer actually does try, the fan base doesn't support them, and they game collapses.
EDIT- this accounts for about 95% of the community. *-Dramatization for the most part | |
Did ya forget SSGX (Super Saiyan Goku X)?
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Bandock wrote:
Did ya forget SSGX (Super Saiyan Goku X)? He wouldn't know who SSGX is because SSGX never does anything with that guild. | |
lol WoW
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I would've mentioned something in there about how they're all rips, but maybe thats so much of a given that its unnecessary to print.
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Nice rant. But yeah, I myself have quit playing anime and even rpgs games on Byond as a whole because of pwipes. Sure the games were fun but after so many of them and dedication, you get tired of it.. Good ideas though, but just like the stereotype of people who are good with computers being nerds/geeks, I believe it can also be said that they're lazy..0_0
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Maggeh wrote:
Bandock wrote: Im not sure he sometimes pops up when Latoma says something funny and I comment in it ;) But anyways, I don't like many of the games in the anime guild. Poor staff, and a lacking gameplay turns me off. Oh and a horrible community. (see; GOA) | |
Rugg wrote:
Maggeh wrote: Yeah and sometimes the games are run by a bunch of noisy 15 year olds who take pictures of themselves without shirts on (WOTS) And while i agree that byond anime is a frustrating place where people all take on the posters attitude of bitching but not really doing anything all the time, i would much rather see somebody making posts saying hey, you know how byond anime sucks, heres my game and what i did differently. Theres only a few people worth watching Berlin Kakashi24 Bustercannon Kobata is also really quite good but i dont know if he intends on making any games. Anyway, i dont think you needed to seperate Byond anime out, lets just say it once and for all, every game on byond has either a bad owner (SGO), is terribly ugly or hackishly put together or has a tedious or hypocritical gameplay design concept (SS13, hey heres a gun, dont use it!) | |
Nobody has really broken the mold yet in terms of anime games. Sure you can make a game's graphics and little nicknacks different, but in the end they all end up using some sortof recycled idea that's been done before. A good example would be running snake way after every death in dragonball games, or the budokai system. I'm not THAT familiar with naruto games but there are quite a few in there as well. People who claim originality nowadays are far from it, and only the people who started little trends like budokai tournaments etc.. are the only ones entitled to it. But I guess it'll be that way anywhere you go, alot of MMORPG games use similar layouts and ideas from others...
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IMO: Level caps ruin the fun. They really are not needed if a developer knows how to make a game without 2-4 key end all be all stats. i.e. In every single DBZ game where the only thing that matters is Max pl. Or Naruto where all you need is stamina and a high 'ninjitsu' level. As ludicrous as this may seem, there is much more to winning a fight than just two factors, or variables. Go figure.
P.S. Dan, the concept behind SS13 is nowhere near how you've depicted it. Ridiculous statements like that just go to show how much of a bias anime fanboy you are, and that you've never really stepped outside the anime realm here on BYOND. | |
SS13 is a GREAT game when the roleplay is organized.
Also yeah Dan's pretty much bias towards alot of things. | |
Riva wrote:
IMO: Level caps ruin the fun. They really are not needed if a developer knows how to make a game without 2-4 key end all be all stats. i.e. In every single DBZ game where the only thing that matters is Max pl. Or Naruto where all you need is stamina and a high 'ninjitsu' level. As ludicrous as this may seem, there is much more to winning a fight than just two factors, or variables. Go figure. See, I find no fun in more or less being forced to train one character forever lest I be left behind and unable to enjoy playing on that character any longer. There might be some super innovative way to keep this from happening while not adding caps, but I certainly haven't seen it yet. The rewards you get for the amount of time you spend on the game should bottom out eventually. Once everyone reaches that point, it's 100% based on skill. I don't want to have to expend extra effort every time I fight some boob just becuase he has more free time to stay stronger than me FOREVER, and forces me to fight with all I have to make up for the stat difference every single time. It gets old quickly. Caps are a simple alternative to that until you can figure out some magical system that works without a ceiling of some sort. If the BYOND Anime games spent less time rebalancing their game constantly and fixing mistakes that those rebalances and other updates caused, maybe they could work on some actual gameplay content. Even with a steep leveling curve people are going to play obsessively, and what you once thought was balanced is probably going to end up being too weak, too strong, too easily abused at a later time. Yeah, slapping level caps onto the BYOND Anime games as they are now probably wouldn't go over well. They'd need to actually have some decent gameplay features in order to make the game fun when you can no longer progress stat wise, which is what MMOs call endgame content. The only "features" in most BYOND Anime games are endless training and PvP, the latter of which usually having a good deal of imbalances with that latest update! Woo! I'm not trying to pin all the blame on the creators either. The player base whining for them to hurry up and release is just as much to blame for things being released long before they're ready. That applies to the game itself as well as all the updates. It'd be nice to see someone with the patience to release a game with all the content already finished and tested, then patch when needed in order to fix bugs, address balance issues, and add new content as it's revealed. Instead, a skeleton of a game is released and the beef is added little by little in multiple updates. But again, that'd be hard to do with the fickle player base, which is a dang shame. Masterdan wrote: And while i agree that byond anime is a frustrating place where people all take on the posters attitude of bitching but not really doing anything all the time At least I try my best to get some things changed in order to better improve the quality of whatever Anime game I'm play. Pretty much every time I say I have a problem with a game, I outline all the ways I think it could be improved. Just becuase creators aren't too lazy to code doesn't mean they aren't too lazy to think or listen. Concept is as much a part of making a good game as the code itself, probably moreso. | |
SS13 is a decent game, but highly overrated, poorly graphiced and behind the times in terms of how its coded (verb whorage, bugs, etc) Im sorry you like SS13, but its not better than most anime games in terms of quality, but it does have a more interesting gameplay design idea than most WOTS based or Zeta based games. Rugg is fag and to Lukav, yes i know you have lots of good opinions and such but you know game owners put a lot of thought into what they do. For instance while you like level caps, my game simply is set up to get exponentially harder to level up from level 90 on, so that it has a theoretical level max of around 100 or 110. See at around level 90 it takes maybe 2-3 hours to level up, but at 100 it takes like 8 at 110 it would take like 30 hours. lol
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"Im sorry you like SS13, but its not better than most anime games in terms of quality, but it does have a more interesting gameplay design idea than most WOTS based or Zeta based games."
You see the funny thing about that statement is, you are wrong. Games like WOTS, Zeta, BLN, and yes, even the god-like creation (not) that is GOA, are completely identical in concept. SS13's concept and gameplay are nothing like the old dead horse you anime game makers are constantly beating on. The fact that you cannot see past the graphics alone tells me that you have never really played the game enough to appreciate it, and believe me, it is a fine example of a quality DM game, unlike every single anime based game that thrives on 2-4 key trainable stats, constant Pvp, and no real content other than the enjoyment of slaving away for hours on end, training your character. Throw in any level cap in an anime game and it would completely eliminate the replay value, because there is nothing to do other than train, and kill those who are weaker i.e. don't slave away their lives training. | |
Riva wrote:
"Im sorry you like SS13, but its not better than most anime games in terms of quality, but it does have a more interesting gameplay design idea than most WOTS based or Zeta based games." Ignorant statement, youve obviously no idea what your saying and working on stereotypes that have developed around here. GOA things to do: RP mode, Wars, Missions, Chuunin Exams (its like a CTF and then later a 1v1 series tournament). There is lots of reason to play GOA, its not all about training and the stat builds in it are actually diverse and not simple and retarded like WOTS (Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Taijutsu). Dont make large general statements if you dont know what your talking about. Ive played SS13, its a good game dont get me wrong, but its OVERRATED. All you anti-anime ignoramuses who wont even evaluate the merits of a game if its based on anime are overrating games like SS13 to say that its just the anime guild that sucks, BYOND in general on average sucks badly, there are a few games worth playing and thats it. | |
Masterdan wrote:
Ignorant statement, youve obviously no idea what your saying and working on stereotypes that have developed around here. That's why I was so excited about your game, Dan. On paper and in theory it seems like it's going to change things. When there's no end to training, then it's all about training. Time=reward. Once you spend a few hundred hours regening in a corner, time=reward starts to slow down enough to balance out with skill=reward, but the time you spend training never stops benefiting you. The result is an anime game that's only different in appearance, while retaining all the same problems of the past games. All the "hardcore" players will train without end and almost always have an advantage over the average player. Not becuase they're good at the game, but because they spend more time "playing" it. That's pretty much exactly the same as WotS, except no caps combined with no wipes means you have to spend even MORE time trying to catch up (whether you're new or making an alt) with people who've been around for a while in order to actually ENJOY features like the Wars without being completely trampled. Yeah, you have features in your game in addition to a leveling system. What you don't realize though is that in order for people to be able to have fun with those other features, they inevitably have to train forever so they can keep up/catch up with everyone around them. That's what makes it the same as the games before it. The gameplay elements revolve around training forever. Like a bunch of little planets revolving around a big ass sun. Also, I'm not trying to insult you or your game. I just want so very badly to see an Anime based game break the mold. | |