I really hope you're talking about Xoox and not me.

If I was a partial target, you should go read the tags on that post. :P

have any of you seen news about america rather than from america?

Errrr... yes? I don't live in America. I get Australian news. Some of which is good, some of which is leaning towards 'infotainment'. Not quite as bad as Faux though.

Since this is directed at me, I'll reply.

Vexonater wrote:

First off, let me say right off the bat that this post isn't intended to start a whole factual debate. I know that a battle against cognitive dissonance can not be won.

Um, ok. 0.o Not sure what you mean by battling dissonance, I was under the impression that holding two conflicting ideas was the nature of debate. Why would you want to war against it, and what could you possibly hope to win, aside from conformity of thought? Seems like we should be celebrating and protecting our right to disagree, not trying to make everyone agree.

Instead, I ask that any of you who believe in any 9/11 government conspiracy, and the individual arguments therein, read what I have to say; try to let it make some sense to you.

Fair enough.

It's natural that any person of intelligence should not trust everything the government does; a certain level of cynicism is always a good thing to have, and for all I know, some of you actually have legitimate concerns on the circumstances about the 9/11 attacks.

A good point, and one you should keep in mind when reading or watching these proofs.

However, essentially every single theory in existence has been completely and utterly disqualified by reputable, intelligent people.

I don't agree with this at all. You can't utterly disqualify a theory if you don't even investigate the possibility that it's valid. Many of us "nutters" are upset for that very reason.

These experts give no credence to any theory but that which has already been established as the "way things happened". Science does not work like this.

You can't test only for the outcome you desire, and claim all other outcomes impossible without also testing them. And then you often times still have to have peers review and recreate your tests to conclusively prove it.

You can't ignore public concerns, conflicting evidence and eye witness reports because they don't fit with your own version of the truth.

If you honestly wish to find out "the truth" about the apparent "proofs of government involvement" out there, I suggest you look up some of these--from reliable sources, by the way. "Popular Mechanics" ran a very comprehensive "conspiracy theories debunked" issue, and the History Channel periodically airs a special on the factual accuracy of conspiracy theories.

What exactly qualifies as a reputable source? That's also part of the problem most conspiracy theorists have. You take the Cable TV as God, but outright dismiss anyone who mentions opposing views as insane without even hearing them out. Being a huge corporation makes you reputable? An article in a magazine is more weighty than scientific papers?

In fact, I implore any conspiracy theorist out there to look up one some of these and check them out for yourselves before posting here.

And before we do, we implore YOU to look up some of the evidence we put forth. Don't take our word for it, do your own homework. We don't simply claim "this is how it is because they are evil", we give you information. Information you can verify yourself. Nobody cares to, though, since we're all insane. Our information must be equally insane.

To those of you who, after actually checking a reputable treatise on 9/11, still plan to go about spreading your "beliefs" about 9/11, I have the following to say to you:

Oh come on. Beliefs? You make it sound like a religion. We don't want these things we say to be true, but to the best of our knowldge, they are. If I was going to be religious about 9/11, I'd pray that it was a terrible tradgedy commited by a handful of dedicated extremeists, not some deeper conspiracy. I would much rather have faith that our government was really looking out for our best interests, than be afraid of what it might be plotting behind closed doors. Being on this side of the debate is no picnic.

To keep saying the things you do is to be selfish, egocentric, and just plain ignorant. You are not helping anything by talking.

Holy crap, dude. That's about the most un-American thing I've heard today. Freedom of Speech is still a right we have, though it's being whittled away. Shutting up is not going to make the world a better place, open debate and dialog is. Censorship isn't wrong, when it's voluntary, but you can't just quiet someone because you don't agree with them. That's how dictatorships work, not constitutional republics.

To say that everything was staged by the government merely cheapens every single innocent civilian’s death, and kicks mud on each and every act of heroism witnessed on that terrible day.

How so? It doesn't change what took place that day to say person X was responsible, not person Y. The firefighters who died aren't simply null and void if the CIA killed them rather than a group of terrorists. Explain yourself, please.

People use this argument all the time, yet nobody says why it's valid. It seems to me like a cheap guilt trip to rub in our faces those who died that day, as if by saying that since we're not buying the official report, we must take on the responsibility of those lives lost. As if it's now somehow our fault for not keeping in step with the rest of the country.

Personally, I think this argument is shallow and demeaning to all of us, regardless of which side of the debate we're on.

Additionally, you conspiracy theorists create the abominable image of a government filled entirely with murderous sociopaths, when it is merely filled entirely with incompetent liars.

No, not entirely. Most people are innocent, and simply get caught up, or are following orders which they may not understand. You can't say no in the military. Soldiers aren't allowed to speak against the government while in the service. It wouldn't take a goverment full of people to pull off an operation like this, only the right people in the right places. And even then, they may not be aware of the impact of thier actions.

Additionally, the general attitude of most of the conspiracy theorists I have met or read upon has been one of condescension. The way I am often forced to interpret it, I feel that your behaviors and arguments all stem, deep down, from an outlook that can only be described as; "Ha. Ha. I know the truth and you believe the government. I'm better than you."

Well, if you want to get down to mere fitness, then someone who is more informed than another is in a sense, better than the other. Ignorance may be bliss, but it's not condusive to progress. If someone thinks they have secret knowledge, they do feel empowered. There's no mystery there.

Does it make you feel good to be right and have the majority be just blind fools?

Uh, no. It's very frustrating to try and talk to someone and have them completly block you out and label you insane or evil because you think differently. I would much rather be right and have the majority be just as right. Isolation isn't a happy place, my friend, even intellectual isolation.

Is the prospect that there is no truth whatsoever to the thoughts you put out there too much for your egos to handle?

Sticks and stones. You're just making false assumptions about my thoughts and slinging mud. I would have expected better than simple name-calling.

Maybe this is why these insane theories and ideas continue to spread in the face of overwhelming evidence against them: you all just don't want to be wrong.

Nobody wants to be wrong. You don't want to be wrong. You throw words like crazy and insane around like it's ok. It's not ok. You say you have overwhelming evidence, we say we do too. You say Read This and Watch That, and so do we. You say we're crazy, we say you're ignoring the truth. We can't both be right, so someone must be wrong. Until we face the fact that we might be wrong, get past the petty insults and calmly look at the facts from both sides, this will never reach a conclusion.

I hope you all can understand that what you continue to do helps nobody. I await your reply.

And I hope you understand that silence and conformity are not virtues. You can't be sure what the effects of people like myself are having, so saying it's not helping is the same as saying it's not butter. It makes no sense and has no context in which it would. If you mean we're not helping kill muslims and steal oil, then you would most likely be correct.

~X