ID:35643
 
from http://republicanrenaissance.blogspot.com/2007/06/ ron-paul-and-fred-thompson-comparison.html
Posted by David McClain on 6/05/2007


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Much has been made lately of the impending entry of Fred Thompson into the Republican race for the nomination. The journeyman actor has precious face-recognition, a commanding presence and camera-smart charisma all on his side. Admittedly, it’s hard not to be drawn in by him. His most recent gig has concretized him as the Law and Order candidate, which I think effectively sums up what a fair number of my fellows are looking for. But what of his credibility as a conservative—a true honest to goodness conservative? Is he the champion of limited government that he makes himself out to be?

The former Senator says that federalism is his lodestar:

"Republicans have struggled in recent years, because they have strayed from basic principles. Federalism is one of those principles. It is something we all give lip service to and then proceed to ignore when it serves our purposes … Those who are in charge of applying the conservative litmus test should wonder why some of their brethren continue to try to federalize more things—especially at a time of embarrassing federal mismanagement and a growing federal bureaucracy."

He has covered this ground elsewhere too, and in a fashion that actually sounds a lot like Ron Paul talking:

"Our government, under our Constitution, was established upon the principles of Federalism—that the federal government would have limited enumerated powers and the rest would be left to the states. It not only prevented tyranny, it just made good sense. States become laboratories for democracy and experiment with different kinds of laws … Federalism also allows for the diversity that exists among the country's people. Citizens of our various states have different views as to how traditional state responsibilities should be handled."

“Limited enumerated powers”. Those are three words that we don’t hear so often anymore. The fact that someone of Thompson’s evident stature is saying them is heartening indeed. The federalist system we once had, with a very small central government rigidly defined in its jurisdiction, has in fact been turned on its head. It needs to be righted. Rep. Paul has been saying this for a good long time and I’m glad that Mr. Thompson is helping bring attention to it as well. None of the other candidates have shown much interest in the subject.

So how do these two, Fred Thompson and Ron Paul, stack up to one another? Judging strictly by the rhetoric, they don’t appear all that dissimilar. But of course it’s action that counts, and that’s where we should look to see who wins on the federalism front; to find out which one of them is really the most conservative. Luckily both have worked in Congress and have thereby provided us with a handy roadmap. Our comparison is abetted by the Congressional voting records published at Project Vote Smart.

Let’s start with Mr. Thompson. Out of the 50 appropriations bills the former Senator voted on between 1995 and 2002, he voted for all but 2 of them. (Appropriations bills are the ones that take money from the Treasury and mark it for spending. This is, it's safe to say, where one has a good chance of spotting who is truly for small government, or federalism, and who is not.) These bills Mr. Thompson voted to pass spent billions upon billions of dollars on, among other things:

* Agricultural subsidies (to dairy farmers, tobacco growers, livestock producers, peanut farmers, and others)
* Federal crop insurance
* Guaranteed subsidized loans to farmers
* Subsidized loans for rural housing, electricity and telephone service
* The National Endowment for the Humanities
* The National Endowment for the Arts
* The Peace Corps
* The Job Corps
* The Federal Railroad Administration
* Discretionary education spending
* School violence treatment and prevention
* The Commodity Credit Corporation (for the purpose of influencing production, prices, supplies, and distribution of agricultural commodities)
* The National Commission on the Cost of Higher Education
* The Smithsonian Institute
* The United States Holocaust Memorial
* The National Science Foundation
* The Dept. of Housing and Urban Development and its various community development initiatives

He also voted for the No Child Left Behind Act and the McCain-Feingold Act. He voted for increasing benefits to workers who have been displaced due to increased imports, voted for many tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid, and he voted to double the President’s salary. (On a side note, Mr. Thompson’s penchant for having the federal government underwrite insurance appears to predate his term in the Senate, going back to his lobbying efforts for the Tennessee Savings and Loan. I would ask Mr. Thompson how extending government support of the S&L industry through the FDIC figured into his concern for the principle of federalism).

Now let's look at Congressman Paul’s record. Out of 166 appropriations bills voted on between 1997 and 2007, Ron Paul voted against all but 6. His rare “yea” votes were reserved for bills which:

* Prohibited subsidizing crop insurance for tobacco farmers
* Reduced funding for the Dept. of Labor and the Dept. of Education
* Prohibited the use of federal funds to restrict travel to Cuba by United States citizens
* Prohibited federal funding of adoption in D.C. for couples not related by blood or marriage
* Allocated funds for the military quality of life functions of the Department of Defense (housing allowances, health services, veteran’s health benefits and pensions)

Paul also voted for a Constitutional amendment that mandated a two-thirds vote in both Houses of Congress in order to increase taxes (requirement waived if war is declared), voted against McCain-Feingold, against No Child Left Behind, and against the Medicare Prescription Drug Bill.

The two candidates’ records are almost exactly the reverse of each other. The answer to the question, “Who is the more conservative?” is clear. Fred Thompson talks a good game (and I for one do appreciate him for that), but his record reveals a tendency to stray far and often from those “limited enumerated powers” that he references in his TownHall.com articles. Probably no less than 95% of every non-military piece of legislation he’s ever voted for has been non-federalist and un-conservative, as well as blatantly unconstitutional, having no basis whatsoever in those particulars set forth for Congress in Article 1, Section 8. In this respect he may be no different than the vast majority of others who have spent some time on the Hill, but it will no longer do for him to use the rhetoric of federalism and limited government while the money hose still bears the impression of his grip upon it.

They say the problem with actors is that they never stop acting. This country needs a leader who actually lives his message.
What, precisely, is wrong for voting for an increased education budget? It's not like American schools don't need the money. And the cost of tertiary education in America is certainly a lot higher then here, from what I'm aware of, so some sort of commission to look into that seems like a good idea.

More subsidies for farmers, though, is a Bad Idea. Half the reason third-world countries are third-world is that their agriculture can't compete with US and EU state-sponsored agriculture. Not to mention the enviromental harm caused by irresponsible farming practices - in Australia, that mostly manifests as wasting water - people farm cotton and rice in South Australia, the driest inhabited state on Earth.
Very simply, education was an issue left to the states, so it's not the federal government's place to intervene. Also note that education levels have been dropping ever since the Department of Education was created. We get what we pay for.
Ron Paul 2008 wrote:
Very simply, education was an issue left to the states, so it's not the federal government's place to intervene. Also note that education levels have been dropping ever since the Department of Education was created. We get what we pay for.

Um, that is the most horrible idea I have ever heard. For a competitive global economy you need national standards. You can't have a hodge podge of different standards.

It just doesn't work.
Vandit wrote:
Um, that is the most horrible idea I have ever heard. For a competitive global economy you need national standards. You can't have a hodge podge of different standards.

It just doesn't work.

Each nation seems to have their own standards. The entire planet is a hodge podge of different standards.
Speaking of Ron Paul and his voting record:

* Embryonic stem cell programs not constitionally authorized. (May 2007)
* Voted NO on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Jan 2007)
* Voted NO on allowing human embryonic stem cell research. (May 2005)
* Voted NO on restricting interstate transport of minors to get abortions. (Apr 2005)
* Voted NO on making it a crime to harm a fetus during another crime. (Feb 2004)
* Voted YES on banning partial-birth abortion except to save mother’s life. (Oct 2003)
* Voted NO on forbidding human cloning for reproduction & medical research. (Feb 2003)
* Voted YES on funding for health providers who don't provide abortion info. (Sep 2002)
* Voted YES on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad. (May 2001)
* Voted NO on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes. (Apr 2001)
* Voted YES on banning partial-birth abortions. (Apr 2000)
* Voted NO on barring transporting minors to get an abortion. (Jun 1999)
* No federal funding of abortion, and pro-life. (Dec 2000)
* Rated 0% by NARAL, indicating a pro-life voting record. (Dec 2003)


It's kind of funny that a man who claims to be such a defender of liberties is voting to ban abortion on the basis of his personal beliefs. And doesn't want stem cell research! I can't elect a president who thinks he can dictate our morality on his terms.

He's a hypocrite.
Vandit wrote:
Um, that is the most horrible idea I have ever heard. For a competitive global economy you need national standards. You can't have a hodge podge of different standards.

It just doesn't work.

And reducing education to the lowest common denominator so every state is happy with its pass:fail ratio isn't the answer. Instead of pushing students to work harder and do better in school, we lower the bar as a nation so no child is left behind. We're less competitive globally as a result, and that just doesn't work.
The Constitution says absolutely nothing about stem cell research, much less about funding stem cell research, thus it isn't a federal issue. If people want it to be, they should pass an amendment making it so.

Note also that all violent crimes, i.e. murder, rape, etc., are state issues, not federal issues. This includes (potentially) abortion and stem cell research.

Embryonic stem cell programs not constitionally authorized.

Just because it isn't authorized doesn't mean it's not allowed. The Constitution places checks on federal government, not what the people can and can't do. Civics class is your friend.

It's kind of funny that a man who claims to be such a defender of liberties is voting to ban abortion on the basis of his personal beliefs.

If you kill a fetus accidentally, you can be charged with murder. If you kill a baby you didn't want to have, you can be charged with murder. Yet if you pay to have an abortion, it's legal. That's hypocrisy for you.

I can't elect a president who thinks he can dictate our morality on his terms.

That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. ever. He's the only candidate who wants these same issues decided on a state-by-state basis. He has his own personal beliefs just like anyone else is entitled to; he doesn't want to force them on people.
And reducing education to the lowest common denominator so every state is happy with its pass:fail ratio isn't the answer. Instead of pushing students to work harder and do better in school, we lower the bar as a nation so no child is left behind. We're less competitive globally as a result, and that just doesn't work.

That's not what I'm arguing! I'm arguing there should be a national standard. The degree is not important to this discussion

Each nation seems to have their own standards. The entire planet is a hodge podge of different standards.

How the hell is this a point? I'm talking about being competitive globally not helping third world countries.



The Constitution says absolutely nothing about stem cell research, much less about funding stem cell research, thus it isn't a federal issue. If people want it to be, they should pass an amendment making it so.


Oh my god. How many amendments do you want? There are reasons we have the ability to pass federal laws.


That's hypocrisy for you.

You're arguing against abortion, that's a contested issue and it demonstrates what I'm saying. Your morality is different than mine. Don't tell me what I can do, be a real defender of liberties.


he doesn't want to force them on people.

Then why does he vote for bills telling me what to do?


state-by-state basis

Are we a nation or a confederacy? Should there be no national stances? Should we go back to the articles of confederation?

All I'm hearing from you is amend the constitution or don't legislate it? I hate to tell you but I don't think the forefathers had foresight to see stem cell research. That's why they gave us a system that could evolve. There are other means they gave us than amending the constitution. You sound like we have no authority other than what is says in the constitution.

I hate to tell you but, we've been operating on "implied powers" for centuries now. It's not even a debate anymore.



You're arguing against abortion, that's a contested issue and it demonstrates what I'm saying. Your morality is different than mine. Don't tell me what I can do, be a real defender of liberties.

There you go again, reading things that I never said. No, I'm very much FOR abortion. I, however , shouldn't be able to impose my will upon you (and vice versa) by expecting someone I vote for to impose my will upon the nation. This is why abortion should be left to states. States are better able to decide how to manage local issues than is the federal government. And like I said, murder is a state issue.

I do, however, believe that it is 100% wrong for the purposeful death of a fetus/baby to be both legal and illegal. That is hypocrisy, pure and simple.

There are reasons we have the ability to pass federal laws.

And the Constitution is clear about what federal laws must be in regard to. All we need to say in an amendment is "Congress shall have the power to regulate stem cell research." That's not too complicated for an amendment, is it? Then Congress can regulate all it wants to, legally.

Then why does he vote for bills telling me what to do?

He's a Congressman. Congressmen vote. He votes in a manner that best represents his ideals and the interests of his constituents. If the majority of his voting constituents didn't agree with his ideals and priorities, he wouldn't have been elected 10 times.

If you paid attention to how he voted, he voted #1 to not restrict personal liberty (including the right to travel freely) and #2 to not spend taxpayer dollars funding projects that shouldn't be federal in the first place. You also ignore that many of these bills weren't simple yes/no votes. Most bills have numerous issues to consider, and if Ron Paul thinks any part of the bill is unconstitutional, he generally votes against it. This is precisely why he voted against Net Neutrality, because it contained clauses for government regulation of the Internet.

Are we a nation or a confederacy? Should there be no national stances? Should we go back to the articles of confederation?

All I can say is, you have no concept of liberty.

I hate to tell you but I don't think the forefathers had foresight to see stem cell research.

You're ignoring something that's very important. There were a lot of things that existed during the time of our Founding Fathers that they also did not include in the Constitution. They didn't seek to regulate everything they could back in their day; why should the national government regulate everything now? Otherwise, what point is there to having states at all?
Otherwise, what point is there to having states at all?

There is no point to having states, no where else has states. They are a relic from colonial eras. We should have provinces. No one on the street has any concept of state rights. We are Americans, not Virginians or Californians.

shouldn't be able to impose my will upon you (and vice versa) by expecting someone I vote for to impose my will upon the nation.

I'm not forcing my will upon anyone. I'm not making you have an abortion, I'm merely making it an option.

And like I said, murder is a state issue.

Uh, no. Punishments for felonies or higher should be nationwide. Under your idea say in Texas I automatically get the death penalty. So instead I just drag the person to Maine where I only get 45yrs for example and I kill them there. The states with the most leniency will get the most killings.

It doesn't work to have varying punishments in different places in a nation.(For things that are at least Felonies)


That's not too complicated for an amendment, is it? Then Congress can regulate all it wants to, legally.

Ok, let's look at an example. Congress is not allowed to regulate anything except something directly specified in the constitution.

We now need an amendment for:
- abortion
- stem cells
- public infrastructure
- health care
- housing
- credit
- internet usage
- laws regarding electronics
- telephone company laws
- creative license
- refugee intake
- television
- social networking websites
- medicine
- food quality control

ECT. ECT. ECT.

It doesn't make any sense, what you are saying we do is so dumb it boggles the mind. So we've got to pas a goddamn amendment and then we've also got to draft the laws. It really doesn't make any sense.

You don't need to amend the pillar of our country ever single time you want to pass a law.

All I can say is, you have no concept of liberty.

No it is you that does not. liberty doesn't magically come from state governments. Liberty comes from effective democratic government wherever it is.


#1 to not restrict personal liberty

You don't understand. I know perfectly well that congressmen vote on their beliefs.

If his belief is to not restrict any of my personal liberties he shouldn't try to be the judge of what they are.
There is no point to having states, no where else has states. They are a relic from colonial eras. We should have provinces. No one on the street has any concept of state rights. We are Americans, not Virginians or Californians.

The United States began as a republic, not as a democracy. Do you know why? Because we had a revolution to overthrow one tyrant, and our Founders didn't want another. And in a decentralized government, it's much harder to infringe on the personal liberties of citizens on a national scale. Look at what we have today; personal liberty is being eroded by the national government. Illegal wiretapping, loss of habeas corpus, loss of free speech, searches and seizures without warrants: These things mean nothing to you? These problems arise on a national level precisely because we defer so much power to the national government.

I'm not forcing my will upon anyone. I'm not making you have an abortion, I'm merely making it an option.

Yet again, you completely missed the point of leaving it up to states.

And like I said, murder is a state issue.
Uh, no. Punishments for felonies or higher should be nationwide.

But they aren't. Thus it is.

Under your idea say in Texas I automatically get the death penalty. So instead I just drag the person to Maine where I only get 45yrs for example and I kill them there. The states with the most leniency will get the most killings.

You're tried in the state where you broke the law. Look it up.
Your example isn't really grounded in reality.
Most people don't break laws expecting to be caught.

It doesn't work to have varying punishments in different places in a nation.(For things that are at least Felonies)

It does, it has, and as long as states aren't allowed to pass unconstitutional legislation, it will.

Ok, let's look at an example. Congress is not allowed to regulate anything except something directly specified in the constitution.
We now need an amendment for:
- abortion
- stem cells
- public infrastructure
- health care
- housing
- credit
- internet usage
- laws regarding electronics
- telephone company laws
- creative license
- refugee intake
- television
- social networking websites
- medicine
- food quality control
ECT. ECT. ECT.

Wrong. Correct answer: Congress doesn't NEED to regulate most of the things you listed. You actually WANT Congress regulating the Internet? and creative license?? and housing?? Are you insane?

It doesn't make any sense, what you are saying we do is so dumb it boggles the mind. So we've got to pas a goddamn amendment and then we've also got to draft the laws. It really doesn't make any sense. You don't need to amend the pillar of our country ever single time you want to pass a law.

You need to take a civics class. Immediately. For your own good.

All I can say is, you have no concept of liberty.
No it is you that does not. liberty doesn't magically come from state governments. > > Liberty comes from effective democratic government wherever it is.

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.
You don't even know what liberty means, so stop pretending.
Liberty doesn't derive from government.
You get your "inalienable rights" because you're a human being, not because government gives them to you.
If government gives you "rights", then it can reasonably take away those rights without cause.
Ever heard the phrase "tyranny of the majority"? (i.e. democracy)
If you reject the notion of liberty, then we are all nothing more than government slaves.

You don't understand. I know perfectly well that congressmen vote on their beliefs.
If his belief is to not restrict any of my personal liberties he shouldn't try to be the judge of what they are.

He doesn't want to be the judge of what they are, which is PRECISELY why he wants to leave issues up to states. And saying he can decide (as a Congressman) what issues get voted on in Congress is, yet again, completely absurd. It is, however, his obligation to vote on issues that are brought to the floor. The fact is, many issues shouldn't be brought to the floor in the first place.
So you have a federal government at state level. You've just split up America into fifty-one (Did I get the number of states right? I can never remember. In Aussieland, there's only six of them, and two territories) seperate countries. I'm not sure how this is supposed to solve any problems - in particular, you've just caused massive problems for funding anything, because economies of scale apply to education, healthcare, and other such state-supported things. Well, things that should be state-supported.

Those problems only exist because your current voter base is, on the whole, uneducated. And also, doesn't vote.
I'd like to note if it wasn't Ron Paul 2008 posting, his post would have been deleted immediately.


"So you have a federal government at state level. You've just split up America into fifty-one (Did I get the number of states right? I can never remember. In Aussieland, there's only six of them, and two territories) seperate countries. I'm not sure how this is supposed to solve any problems - in particular, you've just caused massive problems for funding anything, because economies of scale apply to education, healthcare, and other such state-supported things. Well, things that should be state-supported.

Those problems only exist because your current voter base is, on the whole, uneducated. And also, doesn't vote."

^ Sums it up.


Wrong. Correct answer: Congress doesn't NEED to regulate most of the things you listed. You actually WANT Congress regulating the Internet? and creative license?? and housing?? Are you insane?

I don't want freaking governors in Arkansas regulating it.

And yes I do, they are already regulated by the federal government.

You are insane.


You get your "inalienable rights" because you're a human being, not because government gives them to you.

Rampant Idealism.


He doesn't want to be the judge of what they are, which is PRECISELY why he wants to leave issues up to states. And saying he can decide (as a Congressman) what issues get voted on in Congress is, yet again, completely absurd. It is, however, his obligation to vote on issues that are brought to the floor. The fact is, many issues shouldn't be brought to the floor in the first place.



Then he should vote to not judge. Because voting contrary to abortion is judging.
So you have a federal government at state level. You've just split up America into fifty-one seperate countries. I'm not sure how this is supposed to solve any problems - in particular, you've just caused massive problems for funding anything, because economies of scale apply to education, healthcare, and other such state-supported things. Well, things that should be state-supported.

Health care, education, and other such state-supported things are carried out locally. There is no "national hospital" that everyone must go to. There is no "national school" where everyone is educated. These things are handled locally, and as a result, those who are most intimately involved are best suited to decide what should and shouldn't be done with regards to each system.

What do we have instead? Money is stolen from people via taxes in the name of federal government welfare. X% of that money is lost immediately because of paychecks for everyone in the huge federal bureaucracy. Then, some percentage of what was initially stolen is sent right back where it came from to be used locally. Cut out the middle man; leave tax revenue where it belongs.

Those problems only exist because your current voter base is, on the whole, uneducated. And also, doesn't vote.

I agree with you 100% there.

And yes I do, they are already regulated by the federal government.
You are insane.

housing: Why in the world would you want this managed on a federal level? Are you a communist? Should the government have more control over your house than you do? "Sorry folks, this house now belongs to the government. You can sleep in the utility room; we're moving 5 other families in with you."
credit: Credit management on a national level is in large part responsible for the runaway inflation we have today. Good thing the federal government regulates it, huh?
internet usage: Personal internet usage regulated by the federal government? Don't you wish it was? Then maybe any dissenters could be legally silenced in this last bastion of free media. 1984 anyone?
telephone company laws: I'm glad the breakup of AT&T has done away with telephone company monopolies. Oh wait... No it hasn't.
social networking websites: "Sorry folks. Freedom to peacefully assemble has been restricted."
creative license: This doesn't even make sense.

I don't want freaking governors in Arkansas regulating it.

The people of Arkansas have more say over what the governor of Arkansas can do than over what the president does. Thus if the governor of Arkansas does something the people don't agree with, the people can more easily affect change. THIS is yet another reason why issues not covered in the Constitution should be left to states.

You get your "inalienable rights" because you're a human being, not because government gives them to you.
Rampant Idealism.

"The government gave you the privilege of free speech, but now we want it back. Sorry folks. Welcome to 1984."

Then he should vote to not judge. Because voting contrary to abortion is judging.

Voting for abortion is also judging.
I'm not going to argue with you anymore because all I find myself doing is repeating myself. You don't understand that liberties aren't magically going to be upheld at the state level more than at the federal level.

You don't understand that having "inalienable rights" is idealism, positive awesome idealism, but still idealism.

You don't understand that voting to take away liberties is not protecting our liberties.

And quite frankly I don't even care about your opinion, I only care about their opinion, and I don't believe you've convinced anyone.
Vandit wrote:
I'm not going to argue with you anymore because all I find myself doing is repeating myself. You don't understand that liberties aren't magically going to be upheld at the state level more than at the federal level.

And you don't understand that when liberties are lost at the national level, it affects 10-100X more people and is much harder to fix than if it's only a single state.

You don't understand that having "inalienable rights" is idealism, positive awesome idealism, but still idealism.

I do understand that it's idealism.
Your alternative makes me shudder.

You don't understand that voting to take away liberties is not protecting our liberties.

You don't understand that fetuses have rights and liberties as well.
The problem is that this is such a gray area.
I personally support the freedom to choose.
But the current system, with the killing of a fetus being both legal and illegal, is hypocritical.
Logically, it should be one way or the other, not both.
But most important of all, you don't understand why Ron Paul wants to leave abortion up to the states.
I've explained this in detail in my other posts below.

edit:
I've decided to include a concrete example for you.
Up until recently, it was illegal to get a tattoo in Oklahoma.
Any Oklahoman who wanted a tattoo had to leave the state to get one.
People were free to go to other states for tattoos.
Eventually, the legislators of Oklahoma realized how stupid it was for this to take place.
Revenue was being lost, and people weren't happy with the local state of affairs and placed pressure on the legislature.
The legislators changed the laws, and now it's legal to get a tattoo in Oklahoma.
As you can see, even though the state began with what could be considered faulty legislation, people saw how things worked in other states and decided they could change the laws to make things better.
This is how "democracy factories" are supposed to work.
Instead of forcing conformity from Washington D.C., states arrive at the best solutions on their own.

And quite frankly I don't even care about your opinion, I only care about their opinion, and I don't believe you've convinced anyone.

Thanks for stopping by.