I remain skeptical on claims that global warming is an imminent threat, and this is partly because I'm no stranger to scientific groupthink. I saw the hysteria over global warming growing, saw dissenting opinions quashed, and knew no good would come of it. This skepticism over fad science owes no doubt in part to my own background as a creationist. Again, not to touch off the evolution debate, the basis of creationist rejection of "established science" is that the establishment of said science was done through a similar process of groupthink.
But I digress. Some time ago I was pointed to a link where it was pointed out that global warming actually endures wide dispute as a theory, yet people with political agendas are still claiming there's a scientific consensus. Frankly I think it's wise to find some alternative energy sources and to use more nuclear power (which is quite clean and doesn't have anywhere near the waste problem it was claimed to have), although anyone who thinks corn-based ethanol is a viable solution is staggeringly misinformed. Still, I don't think carbon dioxide is our real problem and if it is, prominent scientists like Freeman Dyson have suggested it's far easier to control through managing forests and agriculture.
The point of all the ecological hand-wringing, though, besides political gain on the part of folks like Al Gore, is to make us revert to a simpler lifestyle. The goal of organizations like Greenpeace is just tired old Luddism in an unsubtle disguise. Hence the flawed Kyoto protocol, which is essentially nothing more than an economic wet blanket and targeted at all the wrong people; the US Senate rejected it almost unanimously during the Clinton administration for that reason. There's this hugely mistaken belief among a lot of well-meaning but hopelessly naïve (read: stupid) people that modern technology is innately destructive and we'd all be better off living in huts like your boilerplate sub-Saharan African village. The problem with that is, sub-industrial societies are second only to hyper-industrial societies (think modern China, 19th-century England) in their capacity to destroy the environment. Modern information economies on the other hand have made huge strides in improving the environment.
Or to put it all more succinctly, dissent on the climate issue is being shouted down by people who are literally too stupid to be entrusted with an opinion in the first place.
Anyway, all of that was going somewhere, and it's this: It turns out the bacon may not kill me after all. In the New York Times of all places, there's an article strongly condemning this exact same scientific groupthink that has led doctors for several decades to believe that more fat intake equals more heart disease. There have been dissenters for quite some time but they've been pushed into the minority, mostly by doctors who haven't studied the issue at all. Even a lot of nutritionists are going on second-hand information; although they're trained in the field, they've been trained based on this flawed hypothesis. (Thanks to Instapundit for both of the above links.)
Indeed my fiancée and her family are all on low-carb diets. Her parents are both diabetic, and she too was diagnosed borderline diabetic over a year ago. On low-carb, they all started dropping copious amounts of weight. (I am not on low-carb, and I'm a programmer. For me the opposite is true.) While there's significant evidence that a low-carb diet is not for everyone, not even necessarily for everyone who's diabetic, it seems to be quite effective. They're just three people of many who are bucking the "established science" and thriving.
The point is, the next time someone tells you science has reached its conclusions on something, know that they're wrong. The conclusions may well be right, but science rarely actually does reach conclusions, and seldom reaches consensus. Remember, at one time people thought--and thought they had verified through their experiments--that living creatures were spontaneously generated from certain conditions, not necessarily always born naturally. Our understanding of heat used to be that materials contained a fluid called "caloric" that they released under friction. For two millennia people believed the universe was more or less the same all throughout infinite space, just galaxies and stars going on forever, all because Aristotle took the idea into his head at one point; more modern theories suggest the universe is at least 78 billion light-years in diameter, and that figure too is in flux.
We're all still learning. In the meantime, let's all resolve to have more bacon.
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Oct 9 2007, 8:13 am (Edited on Oct 9 2007, 8:26 am)
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http://xkcd.com/154/
Your definitely an American lummox, although i do agree that global warming is being blown way out of proportion in a radical attempt to reduce pollution. Because we dont have much evidence of imminence here, but we worry about the world flooding from Co2 emissions.. Al Gore is a douche and i agree with your topic in general.. but Creationist, hmm, not wanting to launch the debate, i dont think we were swindled into evolution, i think the profound simplicity of it and almost no duh aspect of it is why it gained momentum. |
Fact: A long time ago, the earth was much, much warmer, and life somehow managed to not be wiped out.
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Frankly there's nothing simple about biochemistry, so there's plenty of room for doubt that it could happen by accident. Prevailing modern theory suggests that maybe certain chemical interactions were more likely than others, providing a little push in that direction, but there are a lot of holes in that theory and most of the actual chemical science doesn't bear it out.
But as for groupthink, I was referring more specifically to foundational elements like early radioactive dating methods, which were cross-referenced to fossils which were then cross-referenced to dates. A lot of immature (or just plain bad) science went into bolstering a lot of other immature science, and it gained momentum. Anyway like I said, my point wasn't to dredge up that debate here. Just to point out that it has some common elements. (As for the "You're definitely an American" crack (duh!), I suppose that attitude probably explains your addle-pated quickness to accept the possibility of a 9/11 conspiracy.) |
I can't speak for early methods, but as I understand it modern carbon dating involves comparing the ratios of carbon-12 and carbon-14 found in an organic deposit. By comparing this ratio to the one found in living creatures, and using some well-understood mathematics concerning radioactive decay, the time at which the creature died can be extrapolated. (Since carbon-12 and carbon-14 decay at different rates, and we know what those rates are because we've measured them.)
Of course, this assumes that the differing amounts of carbon-12 and carbon-14 weren't placed there by an omnipotent and devious God for the purpose of tricking us; in which case all bets are off. But let's not get into that, because that debate goes around in circles and convinces nobody of anything that they didn't already believe. Vexonater wrote: Fact: A long time ago, the earth was much, much warmer, and life somehow managed to not be wiped out. Oh, for sure; life itself is remarkably hardy. I have no doubt that the cockroaches and bacteria don't care about the levels of temperature fluctuations and sea level fluctuations that we're talking about. That's quite irrelevant though, because the sea level matters quite a lot to us. Especially those of us living in low-lying areas, and those of us living on higher ground who would have to deal with anyone displaced from the low-lying areas. Lummox JR wrote: The goal of organizations like Greenpeace is just tired old Luddism in an unsubtle disguise. Hogwash. Only the most extreme elements of the most extreme green groups think that we should all go back to the pre-industrial era. Claiming that "all groups like Greenpeace" believe that is rather like saying that all Christians believe they should stone their Sabbath-working neighbours to death. I think Greenpeace does good work on the whole, despite them being a little bit rash sometimes, and I'm about as far from a Luddite as one can get. If society reverted to any point before the information age, I would be (A) out of a job, and (B) very very bored. Also, referring to "groups like Greenpeace" is tarring everyone with an environment agenda with the same brush. Not everyone is as uncompromising as they are. You don't like it when people rail against all Christians on the basis of the positions of a few Christian fundamentalists, so please don't do exactly the same thing in reverse. I'll admit that I personally can't prove that global warming is a threat, even though I think it definitely is. But conversely, you can't prove that it isn't a threat. By this point, any debate on the subject can only be a faith-based one, and that's a shame. So I agree with you to that extent, even though many of your ideologies are in opposition to mine. |
My opinion on the issue is that it is blown out of proportion by people with an agenda, but is still certainly very real. There is plenty of evidence suggesting that the ozone layer is still being depleted, that radiation and temperatures at Arctic measuring stations are increasing, that the ice caps are melting, etc. etc. I can't imagine the water level will rise any significant amount, certainly not enough to flood downtown areas to anywhere near the magnitude that people are suggesting: build a two foot dike and problem solved. Still, it's happening, and suggesting otherwise smacks of the bad side of skepticism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Image:Instrumental_Temperature_Record.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Image:2000_Year_Temperature_Comparison.png Both of these are based on historical data and estimations, but I'd be more inclined to believe good estimations based from science than I would be inclined to believe someone's skepticism. =) |
Fun fact: Temperature measurements have actually been compromised by badly installed equipment. In some cases the devices were found near air conditioning vents, or without the proper distance from other structures. But regardless, we only have about a century of data.
Carbon dating is actually a lot more complex than using exponential equations, since it relies on information about carbon-14 creation and absorbtion which varies significantly throughout recorded history. Comparing to other items with well-established histories is possible, so carbon dating is relatively accurate for most periods (not all) within the last 5,000 years. Past that it gets fuzzy. But I was actually referring to older methods which were used to date rocks; this depended on having some foreknowledge of the rocks' original composition, which of course is impossible. And yes, I am painting environmental activists with a pretty broad brush, but then these groups are by and large painting climate science with an even broader brush. The Sierra Club, for example, isn't about to come forward and say there's lots of dispute over the nature of global warming or human impact thereon. Most environmental groups have been harping on global warming day and night for a couple of decades now, and aggressively pushing "solutions" like Kyoto based on bad science and bad economics. While you can say only the most extreme radicals in the environmentalist movement believe in a return to pre-industrial living, they nevertheless set the tone of the debate. I'm sure most people who consider themselves green don't think about returning to a colonial level of technology or worse, but they still repeat the talking points of those who do. |
Again with the 9/11 crap. I merely said that your labeling everybody who listens to theories as idiots was an ignorant doubters are terrorist right wing screw the metric system thing to do. Americans dont like to listen to evidence, they always will throw what little doubt they have into a mountain of coinciding facts that prove things like evolution almost to a tee. I dont know, i cant imagine really saying evolution is false and not being berated around by the intellectual community as an idiot. And its not because of some anti-religion conspiracy either, its because believing evolution isnt real is as far fetched as believing 9/11 was an inside job.
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Some temperature measurements are suspect, sure. This is true of anything.
Some priests, pastors, and reverends of religion are also suspect -- just look at David Caresh. =) Just as David Caresh doesn't represent a failure of Christianity on the whole, neither do anomalous readings from the vast minority of measuring stations represent a failure of scientific global warming on the whole. David Caresh was a nut, anomalous readings are nutty, but both are exceptions and not the norm. |
Odd choice of comparison there, Masterdan, considering you argued pretty passionately that you thought 9/11 being an inside job wasn't a totally idiotic notion. Even if you don't believe it's true yourself, you at least gave some credence to the nutjobs who do, and blithely wisped by some of the more obvious reasons they're wrong. The bigotry against Americans there isn't too surprising I guess considering it seems to be a prerequisite for taking these loony freaks seriously. It's not that Americans don't like to listen to evidence; we don't like to listen to obvious stupidity.
Anyway there are in fact plenty of scientists who don't believe in evolution or at least not in its current theoretical form, but they are indeed in the minority. But again, groupthink is the point here. The fact that scientists in the minority in any branch of the field get labeled as crackpots (some, granted, for good reason) just makes it all the more likely that science will coalesce around the wrong conclusions. As the article says, they reach a "reputational cascade" effect where it becomes damaging to their career to question the status quo. And yes, I know a few anomalous temperature readings don't necessarily add up to a hill of beans. But in the case of long-term phenomena that may fluctuate over centuries, even millennia or more, a century of data that didn't even start to get accurate until recently isn't enough to be basing strong conclusions on, either, and it certainly doesn't prove cause and effect. And as much as the Waco nuts don't represent mainstream Christianity, there's still a lot of people who view Christians as being not too far many jumps away from that. Extreme data points tend to most influence the opinions those who don't research in depth. |
Global Warming is overblown, this I admit. Considering the fact that we are recently out of an ice age (compared to the 4.8 billion years of earths existance), it is no surprise that the earth is becoming warmer. That being said, it is still somewhat of a threat because of the speed that it is warming. Yes, people will survive at least until the atmosphere dissipates. There is also plenty of unsettled land for people to go to (Overpopulation is a city thing, hive mentality keeps people piled together even if there is plenty of room.)
Anyway, global warming isn't going to happen all at once. There won't be a giant wave flooding Manhattan. Sea levels are going to slowly rise for thousands of years. Weather phenomenons will be our main effects for a while. Besides, we've all seen Water World, it'll work out fine. People tend to go with the flow, simple as that. The correct one isn't the one who knows the truth. The correct one is the one most people believe. |
Actually there's significant evidence that another ice age is due. All the more reason to slow down the hype over global warming. If we can get the hype divorced from the science, maybe we can actually learn something about controlling our climate and use that to our advantage.
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Lummox JR wrote:
And yes, I am painting environmental activists with a pretty broad brush, but then these groups are by and large painting climate science with an even broader brush. Ah... so "I'm allowed to do it because some of them are doing it too." Great argument, especially when you're trying to claim the moral high ground! While you can say only the most extreme radicals in the environmentalist movement believe in a return to pre-industrial living, they nevertheless set the tone of the debate. Um, well... no. They don't. If they're excluded from a debate (and they will be if there are more sensible environmentalists around), then they can't influence it. I'm sure most people who consider themselves green don't think about returning to a colonial level of technology or worse, but they still repeat the talking points of those who do. I disagree, because I've never seen this happen. Feel free to point out examples. In any case, just because one group of people reaches flawed conclusions from a given set of arguments, that doesn't mean that the arguments themselves are necessarily flawed. Of course they might be, but that depends on the argument. |
www.realclimate.org
Funnily enough, Lummox, I can find almost every single claim you've made about the science of global warming on that site. Where it is refuted. Lummox, I'm pretty certain that you're a rational human being. So please actually think instead of repeating the same old crap that every single climate change (or evolution) 'skeptic' brings up. Honestly, describing evolution as an 'accident'? Either that, or you're confusing abiogenesis and evolution. You're better then that. EDIT: "Anyway there are in fact plenty of scientists who don't believe in evolution or at least not in its current theoretical form"? Ungh. |
But I was actually referring to older methods which were used to date rocks; this depended on having some foreknowledge of the rocks' original composition, which of course is impossible. Actually there's significant evidence that another ice age is due. Well, Lummox, you are contradicting yourself here. Due to the erosion of certain types of rock in the rock layer, the type of rock, and the depth of said rock, scientists have projected dates for the many ice ages our planet has had. By stating that dating by rock variations is invalid, and then stating that there is significant evidence of an ice age, you have acknowledged and discredited the same founding principle of science. Or did I misread the bible when John turned to Jesus an said "Ye lord, this ice age freaking bites.", and Jesus replied to him: "Yes, my son, it does. But I'm glad I won't be around in 2003, for the next one." While I agree with your main point: People in large groups are dumb. Look at history, and you will see an infinite number of examples. America in the 1950's is pretty good if you want a laugh. Though, I will say shame on you for the creationism comments. Are you going to tell me that you believe that people using scientific instruments are actually inferior to a group of books with unconfirmed authors, passed down through the ages, retranslated hundreds of times, recopied thousands of times? I hate to say it, but the bible is the same thing as modern science. It's our way of justifying our existence. Our way of saying: "I'm special. I have a purpose.". I'm not an atheist, but I will say that I'm more willing to believe in unicorns and dragons than I am willing to believe in an all powerful deity creating us in his image. But, until we discover sentient extraterrestrial life, the bible beaters will keep on yammering on about their eternal souls, and how there is one god, and we were created in his image... I won't be alive to see it, but that will be the nail in the coffin for religion, or if you will, oldworld science. |
I'm not a six-day Creationist or an Evolutionist. I'm a Convolutionist -- I think the history of life, and Man specifically, is a lot more complicated than either extreme lets on.
As for global warming, it leaves me cold (ha ha) on two counts. One is the debatable evidence for the phenomenon itself. The other is the debatable evidence that, if global warming is real, it's necessarily bad. For me, global warming is bad in an aesthetic sense, because I like cold weather. But for the world at large, life in general tends to thrive and diversify more in warmer climes than in colder ones. Or did I just imagine all those leftists carping about the endangered tropical rainforest a few years ago? |
Jp, one big red flag right off the bat is that that's a pro-Kyoto Web site. They have an agenda to push. And to push Kyoto is either to have zero concept of economics or what the protocol will actually do, or to grasp those things yet accept worldwide depression as a consequence. Many prominent scientists have even pointed out that the Kyoto protocol will do little or nothing to alter the status quo environmentally, and there is even wider agreement that it will do significant harm economically. (Not discussed of course is that severe economic harm leads to severe ecological harm.)
Perhaps you simply missed the link in my post to an entire series of articles by prominent scientists who are dissenters. Clearly not every counterargument to global warming is as bogus as you think. And Ter, a bit of duh here, saying that a method of dating rocks is invalid yet also saying it looks like an ice age may be on the horizon is not in any way a contradiction. You'll note I said diddly crap about the time scale between ice ages. And anyway I think you're way off to believe the existence of extra-terrestrial life, intelligent or otherwise, would somehow put an end to theistic religion. |
I just typed out a long-winded reply to the "way off" bit, but I don't think it really belongs here. So I'll drop the religion bit, as my views are generally disagreed upon by both sides, science and religion, because it challenges both in some way.
I dunno, though, saying an ice age is on the horizon while invalidating dating by the study of sediments and rock formation, is kind of like saying "It looks like rain" on a clear day. Sure, it's gonna happen, earth's weather, theoretically, is cyclical, it heats up and cools in regions as the axis of the earth tilts, and gasses in the atmosphere build up and cool. But what I don't get, is what leads you to believe that an ice age is on the way, when you invalidate the main bit of evidence that supports said hypothesis. Unless you are generalizing, and stating that earth's weather is cyclical, and an ice age is on the way... eventually... But I know you well enough by now to know you've got something backing what you say, almost every time you say something. So, am I missing a key piece to this puzzle, or are we just looking at it differently? |
Lummox JR wrote:
And anyway I think you're way off to believe the existence of extra-terrestrial life, intelligent or otherwise, would somehow put an end to theistic religion. Quite so. People don't let go of their beliefs that easily. Religion has always been modified to fit the discoveries of the day. |
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Sorry, I just had to. It was a day when ATP Development was LANing and we decided to cook up a pack of bacon.
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Pizza bagels, too.