36% (4)
63% (7)Not that long ago, the FBI raided President Donald Trump's home to retrieve classified documents that he had taken when he left office. The news cried for weeks about this, claiming it was outrageous and possibly criminal, despite the fact that the President is the highest authority in our country, and has the power to declassify and posses classified material. Many former presidents have taken documents on their way out, and many of those documents later end up in their presidential libraries. Clinton did it. Obama too. Trump, however, was villified for doing nothong wrong, and people still believe taking those documents was criminal, even though it's fairly standard practice for presidents and has never been an issue before.
But Biden was not president when he left office as Obama's VP. The Vice President has no authority to declassify documents, and deapite that fact, Biden took documents anyways. That is a federal crime. Not probably. Is. On thre separate occassions, we've discovered classified documents in Biden's possession from the time he was VP. Now the news is scrambling to cover and excuse Joe's crimes while still villifying Trump for his non-crime. It's a tale we hear often. A republican persecuted for something they didn't do, later discovering it was democrats who were guilty the whole time.
Will Joe be punished? No. Of course not. "This is different," one pundit stated, when comparing the Trump accusations with Biden's recent crimes.
Rules for thee, but not for me.
Again.
The corruption and hypocrisy of the liberal state is on full display once again, and you will rush to defend it while you dump on Trump for the fantasy you have in your head of a xenophobic racist bigotted strawman you taped a picture of Donald's face to.
So, I ask you. Should Biden be impeached for his federal crimes, or would you rather prove me right again? I know the right answer, and the answer you will give, but I want to see how your contortionist skills are. Go on, twist. Get the knee behind your head. Dance monkey.
ID:2847688
 Jan 13 2023, 8:42 am
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Spevacus wrote:
Trump's offense is significantly worse because the National Archives repeatedly, over the course of a year, requested that he turn over a bunch of material that he had in his possession... Unsuccessfully. When he finally did turn over some 15 boxes of it, the National Archives discovered that it was classified material, and that's what started the criminal investigation. So that we're both working with factual ingormation, here is a surprisingly neutral and fairly unbiased news article from NBC News covering these events and questions surrounding the Mar-a-Largo raid. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/ trump-allies-say-declassified-mar-lago-documents-experts-say -unclear-w-rcna42311 Within that article is referenced a document from the Carter presidency in 1978 that you will likely wish to review, discussing these policies and procedures. https://irp.fas.org/offdocs/eo/eo-12065.htm The raid uncovering all of that classified material is extremely damning for Trump because he: That is technically not true. Trump declassified those documents prior to leaving office, as is attested to by Kash Patel, a Pentagon chief of staff who states that he was present when Trump declassified the documents. 2. Knew he had the classified material Also untrue. Declassified documents are not classified. 3. Insisted to the National Archives that he did not have the classified material Correct, because the documents were already declassified by the President. He was not in possession of classified material. It's unbelievably delusional to think he's "done nothing wrong." I don't just think it, I know it to be true and state it openly. It's not delusion, its fact-based assessment of the reality of the situation. No need to attack my character. You're better than that. That's why I like you. The president does wield the power to broadly declassify materials. However, the president can't just speak the magic word and make a document no longer classified or SCI material. Actually, he can do just that. In fact, he doean't even have to speak. By his actions it can be made declassified. There is no higher authority. To whom would he appeal? The only group above the preaident in authority is the People. What sense does it make to have the highest authority in the land grovel to unelected bureaucrats for permission to act within their own authority? It's absurd. There's a process that must be gone through, even if it just boils down to the simple announcement of such, that will actually make information declassified. 2020's New York Times v. CIA had this as a sticking point. The CIA is not the President. Also, Trump did announce that the documents were declassified. Not only did he state as much in the presense of a Pentagon chief of staff, the very act of stating that he was not in possession of classified material is, itself, a declassification event. While th3re is a process for declassification, there is no enforcement, and it is not clear that it binds the Commander in Chief from declassifying by any means. Biden will not be indicted Yes, we know. He could kill a man on live TV and nothing would happen. We comprehend the double-standard very well, having been subjected to it for many years now. Rules for thee, but not for me. while he's in office as the justice department maintains the idea that the sitting president shouldn't be indicted. Then explain why the DOJ has started an investigation. The same applied to Trump when he was in office during the big Russia collusion shtuff. Trump was not indicted on charges that he colluded with Russia because the alegations were false, and he did not collude with Russia. In fact, Hillary colluded with a Russian informant to bring the Steel Dossier against him. Once again, proving that all the alegations leveled at Trump were, in reality, sins the Democrat party were themselves guilty of. As to whether Biden *should* be indicted or impeached, there's apparently the rule that the possession of classified material when not in office is a crime if and only if it's known to be in your possession Not many people know this, but ignorance of criminal acts is not a legal defense of those acts. "I didn't know it was a crime" is not a valid defense. Biden's guilt is without question here. The question is how will it be spun so he doesn't serve justice. or there's active obstruction of justice being committed (you know, like, blowing off the National Archives for over a year). Trump's lawyers were working with the government that whole time to resolve the dipute. That's not the same as blowing them off. The NBC article covered this. Biden claims that he was not aware of his possession of such material, Irrelevant. Ignorance is no defense. and his lawyers turned over the documentation willingly when they discovered it. Cool. Maybe he'll get a lighter sentence for cooperating with the law. He's still guilty of committing a federal crime. You're free to be as skeptical as you want about that, because of course you will be. Skeptical is a funny way to spell the word informed. I think it's pretty clear who did more wrong here, but go off king. My pronouns are Lord/Master, but I'll let this slide because you are a true chad among brads. Good reply. I wish more people would refrain from blatant shit posting so we can have civil chats like this. 10/10 would debate again | |
For the sake of argument, I'll drop the idea the the documents were classified (as you cite one person was there to witness their declassification). I'll still disagree there, but since we're basically still arguing whether Trump *can* do that, there's no point in continuing there.
How do you answer to the problem where Trump was asked to surrender government documents, and did not do so? In May of 2022, his representatives turned over some and insisted there were no others. The DOJ ruled he was required to obey the subpoena even if the documents were declassified, hence the raid on his property to get those documents. Do you think that he's still culpable for that? | |
He could kill a man on live TV and nothing would happen. FTR, liberals don't like Biden. If he did a crime, he should he held accountable. Same as anybody. However, Biden wouldn't threaten the US government with civil war if he was held accountable for a serious procedural violation. | |
It's real tinfoil time, none of the pansy shit
In a large umbrella of government corruption, none of them have been or ever will be innocent. They will continue to ensure that we never focus on what they don't want us to see and every presidential candidate is a different flavor of the same stinking dogshit and will continue to be until the extremely effective two party system sewing division in the country is dissolved. Everyone sucks, fuck em all | |
Spevacus wrote:
For the sake of argument, I'll drop the idea the the documents were classified (as you cite one person was there to witness their declassification). I'll still disagree there, but since we're basically still arguing whether Trump *can* do that, there's no point in continuing there. The truth is that he can, and the question is should he be allowed, and by what authority. It's a deeply constitutional matter. The President is the leader and supreme commander of the entire military. He can appoint the heads of the FBI, the CIA, NSA, etc. When it comes to matters of military and national security, he's it. The buck stops there. The only exception is atomic secrets. While it has been speculated, and in some instances implied, that the documents were atomic secrets, they were not. How do you answer to the problem where Trump was asked to surrender government documents, and did not do so? I would argue that the documents were no longer property of the government, and therefore they had no legal right to demaand them from a private citizen who legally possesed them, and I'd win in court doing so. In May of 2022, his representatives turned over some and insisted there were no others. The DOJ ruled he was required to obey the subpoena even if the documents were declassified, hence the raid on his property to get those documents. No. I know the Constitution protects citizens from illegal search and seizure by the government. Those documents were the President's property. He has the right to declassify and posses them. He did. The National Archive can request all they want. They can't demand. The FBI can't be used as a bludgeon to gain compliance with acts which violate the founding document of this nation. But this topic isn't about Trump. It's about Biden. You know, the guy who was just found to have commited a federal crime? They found documents in his garage. Come on, man! | |
Seems like an awful lot of defense for an action that's indefensible.
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Spevacus wrote:
Yea idk man kinda seems like there's a lot of coping going on but maybe that's just my lib brain. Then you should be able to point out this "coping." I told the truth. I wasn't even snarky or rude. Do you mean the fact that you seem to be obsessed with Trump in a thread about Biden? We have a term for that. Whataboutism. Also known as derailment. That seems to be the only form of communication this community is capable of anymore. The topic is not about Trump. I will make a topic about Trump if you like, and we can go full bore down that rabbit hole. I forsee much wailing and knashing of teeth, but if you want to.... Is that your best reply to what I wrote? You can't even be bothered to articulate a reason as to why what I said was untrue or wrong without an ad hominem? Or at all? I thought you were the one reasonable person I could talk to here who's not just echoing my own ideals. I thought it was good to go outside the chamber. Was there ever any intention of a real engagement, or was this just a lark, and nothing more? I thought we had something special. We could have been perfect! ;_; </3 It seems to me that people have only entered into this conversation to say things about Donald Trump. If that's where the market lies, I guess I'll open a shop there. This shop is about Joe Biden, and the fact that he was caught comitting a federal crime, and whether or not he should be impeached. If you have nothing to say on the topic, then simply don't reply. Joe Biden had classified material in his possession for six years in three different locations. That's a fact. Your defense was that it's okay, because he was ignorant. Don't address the fact that ignorance doesn't get you off of criminal charges. There is no defense. Prove me wrong. Don't say, "Well Trump bla bla bla...". That's not a defense. That's tu quoque. Even Ter was able to state that if a crime was comitted, justice should be done. That's a very moderate and unbiased position, and the truth. Of course, he had to sanwich it between to slices of Orange Man Bad, but credit where credit's due. ~X | |
Then you should be able to point out this "coping." You wouldn't get it. | |
don't just focus on orange people, we stand for All Man Bad in this household
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Ter13 wrote:
Then you should be able to point out this "coping." Ah, ad hominem. You mean you can't explain that which doesn't exist. It was just another character attack. 'Xooxer is coping because he can't handle being wrong.' 'He's delusional so he won't get it.' That's the subtext here, right? Then prove me wrong. With data and facts and law and not logical fallacies. If you are incapable, then that means I win by default. At least Spev gave an effort. You seem to be here just to shitpost. Maybe if you drag the topic down into the gutter far enough, Lumms will finally kowtow to your protests in Discord and finally ban the Bad X Man. Sorry to dash your hopes, Ter, but I'm not going anywhere. You can toss sabo into the gears all you like. All you are accomplishing is to prove you are a basic troll who would violate the posting guidelines to abolish a man you disagree with ideologically. That's not an honorable or respectable way to conduct yourself. If the mods were truly objective, you'd be having a timeout for this jerkish behavior. But X Man Bad, so the ends justify the means. I used to ban people from Chatters who did what you are doing. I called it troll baiting. It's the act of instigating a person in order to entice them to act out of line, for the purposes of punishing them because you take issue with their person or presence. I banned my own mods for that. It's underhanded and dishonest, and brings drama and headache where none existed. I didn't stand for it then, and Lummox shouldn't be standing for it now, but here we are. Proving me right again. And again. And again. And again. Haters gonna hate. By the way, we just found 5 more documents in Biden's house. Still think it was an honest mistake and no crime was comitted, Spev? That's four locations now, if we count the garage and the house separately. The evidence is damning. Imagine, actually comitting a federal crime as VP and having everyone rush out to defend the act with wet noodles. How embarassing. ~X Still winning. | |
Albro1 wrote:
Genuine question: What federal crime are you claiming Biden committed? I have never believed your questions were genuine, but to humor you again, this one: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924 | |
So to reference:
"Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both." While it is certainly possible that Biden knowingly had these documents and had the intent to retain them, is there evidence to show that that is the case? | |
Albro1 wrote:
So to reference: Ignorance of the law is no defense. A woman was recently sent to prison for five years for taking home classified documents while claiming she did not know she had. Thank you for confirming my suspicion that your "genuine" questions have all been sly attempts to catch me out. You're free to try again. | |
It was just another character attack. Nah, it's not really about character. It's more pointing toward behavior. You've taken two situations that should, in any rational person's mind have been treated via the same process the same way, and then spun them out into two wildly different things by technicality and by pushing needles and twine through a parade of turds to make a whimsical turd-festooned bullshit tree complete with turd angel and pubic hair tensle. With corn somewhere. I dunno. This metaphor got away from me. This is a political party making a show of this after spending the last year making up tacitly nonsense arguments for their stronk man's illegal behavior, despite spending the last five years prior to that shouting that Hillary was guilty of treason for pieces of classified mail on an e-mail server. The point is kind of that the position you have taken is an publicly, openly, and laughably absurd position to take that is logically indefensible. It takes you pages upon pages of screeds and cherry picking information to somehow hurl yourself free of the hypocrisy you are trying to accuse others of, and those others popped into the thread, and were just like: "Yeah, investigate him. Maybe he did a thing he shouldn't have. We don't know. Let's let the institutions that oversee this take care of it.". I think, that's the cherry on top of the absurd sundae you've made here. You came here expecting a bunch of people to fight you on how Biden is totally different, and you somehow threw that dart into the dirt to make this thread 90% by volume explanations about how Trump having boxes of classified documents at a golf club that's been repeatedly breached by foreign agents over the last four years is totally different. Everyone can see how silly that is. Meanwhile, the right just spent the last several years coming up with reasons why that same institution that you are suddenly horned up about getting to deliver your political adversaries' heads on spikes, was a democrat-laden partisan witch hunt out to tarnish the reputation of based president. The point of all of this is the continued erosion of norms and the inflammation of a sense of personal injustice among the people. When they see the same institution ultimately not hold Biden accountable for what they baselessly believe to be worse than what Trump was not held accountable for, they will connect it to Hillary not being held accountable, and somehow, in defiance of all reason and personal integrity, see a trend that the justice system is biased against Republicans and needs to be torn down. Real talk, y'all got what you wanted. We're an America with a de facto aristocracy in all but name. We're an America with weak labor unions. We're an America with a police force that can use lethal force against its own citizens with total impunity. We're a nation with a prison population that makes authoritarian states blush. We're a nation that criminalizes medical problems, poverty, and public service. We're a nation that has gutted entitlements, the social safety net, taxation programs that fund the very infrastructure that is supposed to maintain the workforce that the wealthy use to enrich themselves as the expense of their own labor pool, and we're a nation that has effectively no functioning system of care for the infirm and the disadvantaged. This is the America the Republican party has fought tooth and nail for. Why aren't you happy with it? I appreciate you continuing to play the victim, while talking broadly about how you used to ban people for exercising their free speech, while trolling the shit out of a forum over the fact that theiy reserve the right to shut you up if you stuff everyone else's ears too full of shit without consent. You ever cook pasta? You have to layer the salt to do it well. Only in this metaphor, it's hypocrisy that you're layering. I think you'd be real good at italian cooking. If you are incapable, then that means I win by default. I say you wouldn't get it, because a lack of self awareness is painfully on brand for the people who lap up your particular brand of strong man politics. It's just facts. If you can't prove that wrong, I win by default. Are you enjoying this kind of argument? Do you see how childish it is when it's thrown back at you? It's not even trolling. It's just giving you what you wanted. You start these threads to get attention. You escalate them to get attention, and then when they blow up and get locked, you revel in how oppressed you are. I'm giving you what you want. Why aren't you happy with it? Name one lefty political bait thread posted on purpose to shit on the right on this whole platform in the last year. One. You're the only one doing this. You're not oppressed. You're just the guy on the street corner with a bible shouting slurs at people minding their fuckin' business, and then pretending everyone who gives him the finger and tells him to fuck off is oppressing his religious freedoms. | |
I have no idea who you're talking about, nor do I particularly care. I'm not attempting to catch you out, I dislike Biden as much as the next guy. But if you claim he's breaking a federal law that specifically says that the perpetrator must knowingly remove the documents with the intent to retain them, I simply ask if there is evidence that that is the case.
It's not a gotcha, it's okay if there isn't evidence. The evidence could simply not have surfaced yet. If it does, by all means, hold him as accountable to the law as anyone else. I hold no bias for or against him, I'm just simply looking at the law as it is written. | |
The raid uncovering all of that classified material is extremely damning for Trump because he:
1. Had the classified material
2. Knew he had the classified material
3. Insisted to the National Archives that he did not have the classified material
It's unbelievably delusional to think he's "done nothing wrong."
The president does wield the power to broadly declassify materials. However, the president can't just speak the magic word and make a document no longer classified or SCI material. There's a process that must be gone through, even if it just boils down to the simple announcement of such, that will actually make information declassified. 2020's New York Times v. CIA had this as a sticking point.
Biden will not be indicted while he's in office as the justice department maintains the idea that the sitting president shouldn't be indicted. The same applied to Trump when he was in office during the big Russia collusion shtuff.
As to whether Biden *should* be indicted or impeached, there's apparently the rule that the possession of classified material when not in office is a crime if and only if it's known to be in your possession or there's active obstruction of justice being committed (you know, like, blowing off the National Archives for over a year). Biden claims that he was not aware of his possession of such material, and his lawyers turned over the documentation willingly when they discovered it. You're free to be as skeptical as you want about that, because of course you will be.
I think it's pretty clear who did more wrong here, but go off king.