Xooxer wrote:

Doesn't WoW have a monthly fee?

Which comes after I purchase the software. That is a service fee for updates and servers. If I am using neither, then I should be charged for neither.

No you don't.

Yes, I do. I bought the software, I didn't buy a license to use it. I own a physical CD with the data wrote on it. That is mine, not Blizzards, reading the data and using the contents are up to me to decide.

You bought the CD key, not the software. You can get WoW anywhere, but without that key, you have nothing.

I bought a package, containing software, as well as a key. That key allows me to install the software, as well as link it to an account to play on Blizzards servers. If I choose not to play on theirs, that doesn't make the software any less mine, I didn't pay any less for it.

The law is never wrong.

I hope you are joking. The law is wrong all the time, it's one of the reasons we have courts, they help decide when a law is wrong.

If my legally owned copy of XP refuses to work because Microsoft wont activate it, I will crack their activation and use it anyways.

Which is illegal, since you didn't purchase the right to do so.

No, I bought a CD containing Windows XP on it. It didn't say on the box "You are purchasing the right to use this product when we feel like letting you". At least on WoW it does say that a monthly fee is required to play, so its fair to say they did give us a little warning. With XP, if Microsoft decides they don't want to authenticate your copy, you are dead in the water, even if it is a perfectly legal copy. That, in my book, is practically theft. Microsoft would be denying me something I legally bought. And it is my right to protect my investment by circumventing their stupid block. I understand that this may opt me out of updates, because those are a service, and I understand that you should have to play by the book to receive the service.

Well, there might be, depending on how it's used. If you share those copies, yes, that's illegal. If you have other people pay you money to look at the copied pages in your house, that too is illegal.

Not doubting that, but this is a personal use case. I'm playing my copy of software I purchased. I didn't purchase a license. The box didn't say "World of Warcraft 1 user license". There is software sold that way, and that's fine, because I am buying a license, and I know it, but that's not what the box says.

On top of that, you can't have me agree to something after purchase. If I buy something, all terms and conditions must be up front before purchase. Not after. This stuff is non-refundable. So if I don't agree with the terms after I purchased the software, I have no way of returning it, no way of getting my money back. So unless I was informed about the limits and rights before I bought it, they don't apply. This is, of course, within reasonable copyright law. I understand that taking one piece of software and installing it on my whole families machines is wrong, because its no longer personal use, but household. This could be said for copying Books, CDs, or any easily duplicated item, most of which don't try to make you agree to something post sale.

Alathon wrote:

Airjoe wrote:

But here's the problem. From what I understand, you did not buy the software. You bought the right to use the software.

This is correct. You do not own the software, you own the right to use the software within the bounds that Blizzard specified.

Any illegal activity upon the software or through the software (such as selling gold for RL money) is a breach of the ToS. Illegal being whatever Blizzard define it as.

Whether you like it or not, those are the terms to utilizing the software.

No. Illegal remains whatever the law defines illegal as being. At most, Blizzard can ban you from the official servers for playing on private ones.

Any argument about whether someone did, or did not buy the software is moot. The client, and all the patches for World of Warcraft are freely available. EULA are not binding contracts, and as such you can use said software in any way you please. The only issue you'll run across is if you use said software for illegal purposes (as defined by law, not Blizzard).Beyond that, as I said previously, Blizzard can't do a thing except ban you from their official servers.

Danial.Beta wrote:

Xooxer wrote:

No you don't.

Yes, I do. I bought the software, I didn't buy a license to use it. I own a physical CD with the data wrote on it. That is mine, not Blizzards, reading the data and using the contents are up to me to decide.

You bought the CD key, not the software. You can get WoW anywhere, but without that key, you have nothing.

I bought a package, containing software, as well as a key. That key allows me to install the software, as well as link it to an account to play on Blizzards servers. If I choose not to play on theirs, that doesn't make the software any less mine, I didn't pay any less for it.

Really? I got the game free from my brother who received a second copy and a fifteen day guest key in one of his special edition packs. I got the CD/DVD/Whatever (I don't use it, or care about it, for the record) using a perfectly legal method. Only here's the kicker - I can't use it. Or rather, I can, but only for fifteen days.

Xooxer is right, you didn't pay for the CDs, you can probably get them in the Diablo Battle Chest. You do pay for the CD key, to which the CD is useless without.

I think he means in Battle.net, which is like Diablo II and whatnot.

Alathon wrote:

Mizukouken Ketsu wrote:

Hacking examples - editted items, characters, stats, etc

High latency - lots of lag and the such

Rampant - a large number running around

Funny. Let me rephrase: What?

Edited.. items? Do you even know what you're talking about?

I was talking about how I agree that the WoW servers are perfectly fine and should be supported yet the Battle.Net servers should, and are, being emulated.

George Gough

Danial.Beta wrote:

Could a Sony Music pack a license agreement in with my CD that removes my rights to play said CD on any CD Player except Sony branded CD Players?

Yes, but they don't because it would put them out of business.

Xooxer wrote:

The Right To **INSTALL** The Game.

And where, on the packaging I bought it in, or the advertisements for it, does it mention only the right to install the game? These types of rules need to be posted pre-purchase, not post.

You're confusing the physical CD with the game. You don't own the game. Blizzard owns the game. You own a CD with a client that won't work without key, that you have the rights to install, since you paid for the key.

The key is simply a method of DRM, people played games before keys existed. I bought the game. Which included all the contents of the box, including the data held on the CD, regardless of how easy it is to get the data elsewhere. That data is mine every bit as much as the music on a CD is. Just because it's software and not music doesn't magically make it work totally different.

You can buy just the key, you know, never touch the software. Guess how much it costs... yep, $50. So, if the key itself is $50, and you got that with the box and CD, what's that you've purchased? The key.

And normally, when you buy a game sans the box, you agree to the terms before purchase, not after.

According to the law, the law is always right. Saying it's wrong doesn't give you the right to break it. It's right, you're wrong. That's why it's the law and you're not.

I'm not saying it really makes the law being wrong what I may do right, but it doesn't change that the law can be wrong. But I don't believe using content on a CD that I legally own in a way I see fit, within the bounds of copyright law, as illegal. There are plenty of ways to get game data from a CD without ever seeing a EULA. It's existence on a CD doesn't magically make me accept it.

No, I bought a CD containing Windows XP on it.

Windows doesn't sell their OS. You can't buy it. You can buy the right to install it. That's totally different. Your argument is false. Downright wrong. You do not own any software related to WoW. Get over it.

Yes, Microsoft sells their OS, just like GE sells their toasters. They produce a product, throw it in a package, and put it on the shelves. I don't agree to a EULA when I first power on my toaster, and any court in the land would laugh at a toaster manufacturer who tried to enforce such a thing. The only difference I see in a toaster and a piece of software is the ease of duplication. Unless I sign a contract as part of the purchasing process, the contents of any contract thrown on after the fact don't apply. I bought the toaster without agreeing to only get it serviced at an authorized GE toaster repair shop, so why should a piece of paper in the box deny me to the right to get said toaster serviced any place I like? Or make toast any place I like? I am not buying all rights to any toaster GE ever makes, I am buying the rights to use my toaster as I see fit. I can't see how software is any different, so long as I'm not duplicating to share it with others. I could duplicate the GE toaster as well, but it would just take longer. I couldn't however, sell that duplicated toaster, because that would be copyright infringement.

I understand the argument you are trying to make, I just feel that the devil is in the details, and this particular detail is marketing and packaging. I in no way agreed to pay Blizzard a monthly fee to play the game before purchasing. There is a blurb about "Monthly Fee Required", but it doesn't say to who, or for what. Required to keep the box in your room? Required to see the contents of the CD? Can Blizzard revoke my key for not having hardware specs inside of the listed required? What about pricing? There is no mention of it on the box either, so if Blizzard just up and decides to crank the price to $80 a month(of course they would never do that), I'm suppose to pretend that I payed that $50 for nothing?

I don't doubt that ownership is a complicated issue this day and age, but I believe consumers have rights, which includes the use of products they own, so long as they aren't using another person's resources without permission. I do own these WoW CDs, and the content on them. I don't own the content on every WoW CD ever made, only the content on the CDs I purchased, and how I use them is my business.

Mizukouken Ketsu wrote:

Now, I have exceeded those requirements with flying colors, and yet I still experience latency issues on their servers with a T1 connection.

You're probably just having client-side lag from loading so many different character models at once. If that's not it then your router or whatever isn't properly configured.

My PC is just barely at the minimum requirements and I'm on a 5mb/s connection yet I don't seem to have any network problems. It's true Blizzard's servers aren't perfect and they lag from time to time, but after a few years of playing I've honestly only seen them lag about 10 times.

Danial.Beta wrote:

And where, on the packaging I bought it in, or the advertisements for it, does it mention only the right to install the game? These types of rules need to be posted pre-purchase, not post.

You seem to think they have to tell you. It's common sense that you can't own the rights to the game. You'd have to pay thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars for that right. You're nobody special. You get a chance to play the game like everyone else, that's it. That's all the CD key does for you. If you expected to own the software, you're going to find the law doesn't agree, and for good reason.

The key is simply a method of DRM, people played games before keys existed.

DRM != License

The CD Key is not form of DRM, it's proof of purchase. It's your literal key to the game. That's what you paid for. The CD and the box with ll its shiny art were just perks, like buying a CD on an actual CD in a case rather than from iTunes.

There's always been some sort of verification to be sure you have a legit copy of games, at least, as far back as it matters. It wasn't a built-in digital technology, but it was still there. I remember Dune 2 asked for answers you could only find in the manual, to try and keep players honest. That was the most common technique, though, as you can imagine, it didn't work very well.

I bought the game. Which included all the contents of the box, including the data held on the CD, regardless of how easy it is to get the data elsewhere.

That data is not your property. You can't sell it, heck, you can't even give it away. Your argument is false on it's face. You own the box, not the art. You can sell the box, erase the CD, but you can't profit from it. That's what ownership is. You do not have it. Blizzard does.

That data is mine every bit as much as the music on a CD is. Just because it's software and not music doesn't magically make it work totally different.

And again, you don't own the music either. You have the right to listen to it, to play it privately with friends or in your home or car, but that's it. (Even playing it for your friends could be considered a violation.) If I own a CD, and I want to play it in my restaurant, guess what, I have to pay the record company for that right. If I am caught playing their music without paying for it, I can be fined big bucks. Even though I legally own the physical CD, I can't profit from it. That's what ownership means.

And normally, when you buy a game sans the box, you agree to the terms before purchase, not after.

Semantics. And I'm pretty sure they put something about the license on the box, as well as in commercials. It's the ity-bity print nobody reads.

But I don't believe using content on a CD that I legally own in a way I see fit, within the bounds of copyright law, as illegal.

Within..?. you don't even understand copyright law. You can legally install the game, make one backup and do whatever you want to the physical CD, except give it away or sell it, or in any way profit from it. Everything else is pretty much illegal.

There are plenty of ways to get game data from a CD without ever seeing a EULA. It's existence on a CD doesn't magically make me accept it.

Ignorance isn't a valid defense. If you didn't read the EULA, then how did you get the contents including the EULA in the first place? Most games auto-run an install when you insert the CD, and unless you specifically circumvent that and *manually* explore the CD.... No judge would listen to this line of argument.

Yes, Microsoft sells their OS,

Nope, they do not. You can only buy a license. Ask them.

just like GE sells their toasters.

Toasters aren't software.

The only difference I see in a toaster and a piece of software is the ease of duplication.

Perhaps you miss the part where software is an abstract thing, while toaster is a solid piece of physical matter. That bit helps.

Unless I sign a contract as part of the purchasing process, the contents of any contract thrown on after the fact don't apply.

Um, no.

I bought the toaster without agreeing to only get it serviced at an authorized GE toaster repair shop, so why should a piece of paper in the box deny me to the right to get said toaster serviced any place I like? Or make toast any place I like? I am not buying all rights to any toaster GE ever makes, I am buying the rights to use my toaster as I see fit.

Nope. You don't buy rights to use a toaster. You actually do buy that physical toaster. You CAN do whatever you want with that toaster, even take it apart, make it into a robot and sell it. It's your property. You DO own that toaster.

I can't see how software is any different, so long as I'm not duplicating to share it with others. I could duplicate the GE toaster as well, but it would just take longer. I couldn't however, sell that duplicated toaster, because that would be copyright infringement.

The toaster would violate trademark, not copyright, because of the logo. The manufacturing of it would violate the patent GE has on the toaster, not copyright. Copyright pertains to copy, not hard physical matter.

I understand the argument you are trying to make, I just feel that the devil is in the details, and this particular detail is marketing and packaging.

It's not.

I in no way agreed to pay Blizzard a monthly fee to play the game before purchasing.

You didn't have to.

There is a blurb about "Monthly Fee Required", but it doesn't say to who, or for what.

Use your imagination, or some brains. Nobody else seems to have any trouble dealing with licensing.

Can Blizzard revoke my key for not having hardware specs inside of the listed required? What about pricing?

Yes.

There is no mention of it on the box either, so if Blizzard just up and decides to crank the price to $80 a month(of course they would never do that), I'm suppose to pretend that I payed that $50 for nothing?

Yes. If you think it unfair, bring it up with the courts.

I do own these WoW CDs, and the content on them. I don't own the content on every WoW CD ever made, only the content on the CDs I purchased, and how I use them is my business.

False.

Download it for free from their website.