BYOND Games

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Nov 19 2008, 11:23 am
In response to SuperAntx
Exactly the opposite. Everything of value in Anime would be lost, resulting in a boom of valueless content.
Nov 19 2008, 11:28 am
In response to SuperAntx
SuperAntx wrote:
Yet nothing of value would be lost.

Not true, all of BYOND would crumble. BYOND is really the only place were you can find all these fan-games at and multiplayer at that. Bet it wasnt what DanTom expected but it is what it is. Cant change facts.
Nov 19 2008, 11:29 am
In response to Bragging Rights
Bragging Rights wrote:
Not true, all of BYOND would crumble.

There was a BYOND before the anime guild, just so you know.
Nov 19 2008, 11:35 am
In response to SuperAntx
And even if this site crumbled to dust and no one ever worked on new versions of BYOND, it wouldn't die. There'd always be people making new games with it, so long as there are people willing to play them. There's really no killing this beast now that it's alive. The worst that could happen would be for it to go underground and become a cult following. Although, one could argue.... >.>
Nov 19 2008, 11:39 am
In response to Xooxer
Xooxer wrote:
Bragging Rights wrote:
But again the side effect would be BYOND stuck with a population of about less than 100, Tom might even stop its development for many reasons.

You must have misread what I wrote. Nobody would leave. Anime games would be just as prevalent as they are now, only they'd all be rips. It would be WORSE than it is now, since all the original fan games would have been taken down. People would stop mking new original titles because they'd not want to get sued, so they'd rip instead because then they wouldn't have to invest themselves into the game. They'd have nothing to lose, while creators of original fan games would lose all their hard work, and perhaps some of their money as well.

The rips would flourish because even the owners of the franchise wouldn't go after every one of them. The lack of decent anime games would cause a surge of rips the likes of which we haven't seen since Zeta.

You said get sued because of anime games erm fangames, that means all of em good bad and ugly and the ones in the future it would mean no fan games at all.

And please dont use 'original' when talking about an anime game based on an actual anime with its own owners/creator/rights owners. Its unprofesional.

No, it's not.

Yes, it is. Originality is what the creator did, after that its just copying and changing.
Nov 19 2008, 11:42 am
In response to SuperAntx
SuperAntx wrote:
Bragging Rights wrote:
Not true, all of BYOND would crumble.

There was a BYOND before the anime guild, just so you know.

oh i know, but there was also Zeta. i wonder if Tom could give us a list of the first 20 games made in BYOND o.O
Nov 19 2008, 11:57 am
In response to Bragging Rights
Bragging Rights wrote:
You said get sued because of anime games erm fangames, that means all of em good bad and ugly and the ones in the future it would mean no fan games at all.

I said the owners of the original games would because they are the ones who violated the copyright. They are also the ones who've attached their name to the game. Rips are often hard to pin down to one person, since there's so many people claiming the same source. There's no way a legal firm would, or could, go after all the rips and rippers. There's no way to identify and sue everyone who makes a rip or who distributes them. The likeliest outcome would be that the lawyers target the popular games, the games made by specific people, the original fan games. One or two rips might get taken down, but they can't take down all of them.


Yes, it is. Originality is what the creator did, after that its just copying and changing.

Originality isn't just a measure of the subject matter of the game. Anime itself is not original in any measurable way. They all borrow from other sources, re-use old traditions and symbolism, and share the same veneration of Japanese history and warrior culture, and rip ideas, concepts and whole characters and stories from other cultures. A fan game, by it's very nature, is based on unoriginal content. It's not the game's homage that originality in this genre refers to. Trying to downplay the value of any fan game based on a misplaced concept like "originality" robs the genre of potential new developments and helps ensure people don't bother trying to be different.
Nov 19 2008, 12:12 pm
In response to Xooxer
Xooxer wrote:
Bragging Rights wrote:
You said get sued because of anime games erm fangames, that means all of em good bad and ugly and the ones in the future it would mean no fan games at all.

I said the owners of the original games would because they are the ones who violated the copyright. They are also the ones who've attached their name to the game. Rips are often hard to pin down to one person, since there's so many people claiming the same source. There's no way a legal firm would, or could, go after all the rips and rippers. There's no way to identify and sue everyone who makes a rip or who distributes them. The likeliest outcome would be that the lawyers target the popular games, the games made by specific people, the original fan games. One or two rips might get taken down, but they can't take down all of them.

Alright a little example, Akira Toriyama and the rights owners come to Tom and say 'no more DB/DBZ/DBGT games on BYOND Hub' then Tom HAS to eliminate all those games no matter who made them or if rip or not, it is a db/dbz/dbgt game after all, it means no more Dragon Ball games on BYOND period, ever. They cant get the true owners but they can go to who ever makes it available to play on the BYOND website.

Yes, it is. Originality is what the creator did, after that its just copying and changing.

Originality isn't just a measure of the subject matter of the game. Anime itself is not original in any measurable way. They all borrow from other sources, re-use old traditions and symbolism, and share the same veneration of Japanese history and warrior culture, and rip ideas, concepts and whole characters and stories from other cultures. A fan game, by it's very nature, is based on unoriginal content. It's not the game's homage that originality in this genre refers to. Trying to downplay the value of any fan game based on a misplaced concept like "originality" robs the genre of potential new developments and helps ensure people don't bother trying to be different.

you just went too far on something simple, original would be 'Power Monkeys and the Legendary Key of Eternal Happyness' series and games. Naruto blah and Naruto blahXtreme are just something based on something already made and owned by someone.
Nov 19 2008, 12:33 pm
In response to Bragging Rights
Bragging Rights wrote:
Alright a little example, Akira Toriyama and the rights owners come to Tom and say 'no more DB/DBZ/DBGT games on BYOND Hub' then Tom HAS to eliminate all those games no matter who made them or if rip or not, it is a db/dbz/dbgt game after all, it means no more Dragon Ball games on BYOND period, ever. They cant get the true owners but they can go to who ever makes it available to play on the BYOND website.

No, Tom would never get served with an order to remove games, since no games are hosted by BYOND. The most they could ask is that he remove the *hub entries* for certain games. There's no way for Tom to remove the games themselves from the system. Anyone who makes or hosts a DBZ game will still get listed somewhere. There's no way to stop that.

Besides, like I said, Tom isn't the one violating the copyright. He provides a little page to show a game was created with BYOND, but the creator of the game doesn't even have to use it to get his game listed and available.

The lawyers could only legally go after the orginal creators and the people hosting the games. Since they can't put a ton of money into going after everyone, they would only target the most popular games in Anime, to set an example. This would have no ill effect on rips whatsoever, and would in fact encourage more rips to be made.


you just went too far on something simple, original would be 'Power Monkeys and the Legendary Key of Eternal Happyness' series and games. Naruto blah and Naruto blahXtreme are just something based on something already made and owned by someone.

No, you're confusing the question. Your power monkey game *isn't* a fan game, so to say it's an example of an original fan game is a lie. A fan game is ALWAYS based on another work. And as I pointed out, so often are the works those games are based on.

If you want to judge the originality of a fan game, you can't consider its source as part of that equation. Otherwise, you're not honestly measuring the game's worth as a game, you're measuring the worth of the source content, and claiming no fan game can *ever* be worthy of publication because it is a fan game. This logic is faulty and is not helping to encourage original fan games.
Nov 19 2008, 12:48 pm
In response to Xooxer
To put it in another context, Tom is the same position the pirate bay is with torrents. BYOND.com doesn't hold the data, it just tells you where to get it. It's worked out alright for them thus far: http://thepiratebay.org/legal Even the raid didn't do a great deal to them. Allowing people to throw other people's media on member space presents a bigger legal issue.

It won't happen, nor do I think it's worth our considering at the present time. Tom and company have no doubt considered this situation and will keep reviewing it in order to balance BYOND's growth and the freedom of BYOND users against copyright concerns.
Nov 19 2008, 1:00 pm
In response to Stephen001
It's also good to point out that so far, no attempts to contact the rights holders has resulted in the closure of BYOND. They simply don't care. Then there's those rights holders who *encourage* fan productions, like George Lucas. Fair use also has to be considered. Not all uses of copyrighted material are illegal. Satires and parodies are covered by fair use, and the Constitution here in the States. Fan games aren't necessary illegal, nor is publicizing their existence. If the rights owners wish to protect their rights, they can lay legal claim to the game's source content, but not to the game itself. If a game owner were confronted, they could most likely change the violating content and keep the game. So even if a herd of ravenous lawyers were to descend upon BYOND, little would come of it, except the loss of the top anime games.
Nov 19 2008, 1:21 pm
In response to Xooxer
Xooxer wrote:
Bragging Rights wrote:
Alright a little example, Akira Toriyama and the rights owners come to Tom and say 'no more DB/DBZ/DBGT games on BYOND Hub' then Tom HAS to eliminate all those games no matter who made them or if rip or not, it is a db/dbz/dbgt game after all, it means no more Dragon Ball games on BYOND period, ever. They cant get the true owners but they can go to who ever makes it available to play on the BYOND website.

No, Tom would never get served with an order to remove games, since no games are hosted by BYOND. The most they could ask is that he remove the *hub entries* for certain games. There's no way for Tom to remove the games themselves from the system. Anyone who makes or hosts a DBZ game will still get listed somewhere. There's no way to stop that.

Besides, like I said, Tom isn't the one violating the copyright. He provides a little page to show a game was created with BYOND, but the creator of the game doesn't even have to use it to get his game listed and available.

The lawyers could only legally go after the orginal creators and the people hosting the games. Since they can't put a ton of money into going after everyone, they would only target the most popular games in Anime, to set an example. This would have no ill effect on rips whatsoever, and would in fact encourage more rips to be made.

alright hub entries, and no why just say hey take out only the 'current' famous ones and leave those other ones live lol. if this happens it wont be like that it would be take out all those db/z/gt games now. This will never happen tho.

you just went too far on something simple, original would be 'Power Monkeys and the Legendary Key of Eternal Happyness' series and games. Naruto blah and Naruto blahXtreme are just something based on something already made and owned by someone.

No, you're confusing the question. Your power monkey game *isn't* a fan game, so to say it's an example of an original fan game is a lie. A fan game is ALWAYS based on another work. And as I pointed out, so often are the works those games are based on.

If you want to judge the originality of a fan game, you can't consider its source as part of that equation. Otherwise, you're not honestly measuring the game's worth as a game, you're measuring the worth of the source content, and claiming no fan game can *ever* be worthy of publication because it is a fan game. This logic is faulty and is not helping to encourage original fan games.

Not making an example of an original fangame because such thing is impossible. A 'good' fangame ok, a '<insert genre here> fangame ok, but an original fan game lol what is that?

In your view if i make a Racing DBZ game its an original fangame, its more like a unique take on the series or just a dbz racing game, theres nothing original about it, its dbz, i have not created it. Not original to me, a unique genre to use for someone elses original idea but not an original fangame.

Its like, Gears Of War is original, but GOW2 is not. Its just based on a past original idea.
Nov 19 2008, 1:40 pm (Edited on Nov 19 2008, 1:45 pm)
In response to Bragging Rights
Bragging Rights wrote:
alright hub entries, and no why just say hey take out only the 'current' famous ones and leave those other ones live lol. if this happens it wont be like that it would be take out all those db/z/gt games now. This will never happen tho.

You don't get it, nevermind.

Not making an example of an original fangame because such thing is impossible. A 'good' fangame ok, a '<insert genre here> fangame ok, but an original fan game lol what is that?

According to you, nothing is ever original, since EVERYTHING (and I mean everything) is based on something else. No game is original since they are all games and therefore based on previous games. You can't make an original FPS game because it's just a copy of Wolfenstien 3D. You can't make an RPG because they're all based on DragonWarrior, or D&D, or any number of sources.

In your view if i make a Racing DBZ game its an original fangame,

No, it's an original fan game because you made it yourself. You *originated* THE GAME. You're making a fan game, so obviously the source material is not original, but WHEN IS IT? Even your power monkey game example steals from NUMEROUS sources. None of that is anything you could claim as original. If you ignore the source material the game is honoring, you certainly can distinguish original games from rips.

its more like a unique take on the series or just a dbz racing game, theres nothing original about it

Yes there is.

, its dbz, i have not created it.

You didn't create the concept of DBZ, or the concept of racing, but like I said, THAT'S NOT what we measure when we say it's original! We measure it based not on the content of the game, but the game itself. You ignore the theme, otherwise you can't make ANY measurements at all, in which case your whole argument goes out the window with ALL WORKS ever made EVER.

Not original to me, a unique genre to use for someone elses original idea but not an original fangame.

DBZ isn't original. It's based on many borrowed ideas. Goku is the modern embodiment of the ancient japanese monkey god, as is the monkey god from The Forbidden Kingdom. That monkey god and Goku are the same character. Goku's creator just turned him into an alien instead of a god. The character is the same.

The fighting isn't original to DBZ either. Ki is part of the culture of Japan, as chi is part of the culture of China. These are old ideas with new paint. Most of the names of the characters in the shows are just bastardizations of English words for food, like Kakarot for carrot and Vegeta for vegetable. Brolly? Broccoli. Nothing original about it, if you know the sources.

Its like, Gears Of War is original, but GOW2 is not. Its just based on a past original idea.

Yeah... suuuure. GoW is original how? Oh, it's an FPS where you shoot monsters to save the world from destruction. Where have I heard that before?
Nov 19 2008, 1:53 pm
In response to Xooxer
I suspect this is wandering a bit off topic.
Nov 19 2008, 2:05 pm
In response to Stephen001
Stephen001 wrote:
I suspect this is wandering a bit off topic.


Yes it did, my apologies. i shall not further this anymore.
Nov 19 2008, 2:48 pm
In response to Koil
Then BYOND loses all it's money and goes back to being worked on by a guy in his spare time. I think it's already been said >_>
Nov 19 2008, 3:33 pm
In response to Bragging Rights
Bragging Rights wrote:
But again the side effect would be BYOND stuck with a population of about less than 100

That would sure cut down on server costs. Lummox might lose his job, but at least we'd have a chance of recruiting some decent developers and players with a fresh start. Not that it would ever come to that point, but it'd be cool if it did.
Nov 19 2008, 3:35 pm
In response to Xooxer
Xooxer, you're talking to a wall.
Nov 20 2008, 1:21 am
In response to Foomer
Foomer wrote:
Bragging Rights wrote:
But again the side effect would be BYOND stuck with a population of about less than 100

That would sure cut down on server costs. Lummox might lose his job, but at least we'd have a chance of recruiting some decent developers and players with a fresh start. Not that it would ever come to that point, but it'd be cool if it did.

but at least we'd have a chance of recruiting some decent developers and players with a fresh start. <<<

How the heck will this happen? It hasnt in the past 5 years, in any mayor way. Any secret you aint telling us lol?
Nov 20 2008, 1:29 am
In response to Bragging Rights
Bragging Rights wrote:
but at least we'd have a chance of recruiting some decent developers and players with a fresh start. <<<

How the heck will this happen? It hasnt in the past 5 years, in any mayor way. Any secret you aint telling us lol?

I guess the idea of Build Your Own Anime Dream just doesn't appeal to some people. Go figure.

We had lots of decent developers before that happened.
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