In a deck that I am building now, I am considering replacing my two Air Elementals with a couple of Extravagant Spirit. Is the extra upkeep cost worth the lower casting cost? It is notable that my deck has 4 Thran Turbines and 2 Saprazzan Skerries in it. It is already a pretty heavy upkeep deck with it's Dream Tides and its Schools of Piranha. What do you think?
-Lord of Water
ID:274599
 May 23 2002, 7:17 pm
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I agree... In most cases, Upkeep isn't worth it... There are only a very few cards that I'll actually play with that have it...
And generally, very few to none of those are creatures...lol Why worry about saving one mana on one turn when you'd be spending that mana once per turn for every turn after that? Just spend it now and you'll be free to use it for other things later on... I pity the poor suckers who are just now getting into the game... Unless they're willing to find and buy the older cards...they're usually stuck with watered down versions of everything...lol It seems as if they just re-release the same older cards, but add on to the casting cost, or give them higher upkeeps... More drawbacks for the same benefits that older cards give... It's a pity... Hmmm... Last time I played was about a month ago, and that was only a couple of games... I need to get back into it... I told myself a long time ago that no matter if I was playing or not, I'd still buy at least a few packs of every new release... Heh...I haven't bought any since Invasion... I got into it around the days of Ice Age... I even have a few of the novels... The Artifact Cycle books are great (all about Urza and Mishra and the Legacy... really cool...) | |
heheheh I got in right after unlimited ^_~
Used to have fun during lunch in HS playing big (8-10) player games @.@ got quite insane *LOL* we rarely finished one, unless one of our specialty decks actually worked.. My goblin deck was fun to watch *L* And I could actually get people to give up the second they realized I was playing my black/white '6 ways to Infinity' deck *L* Noone I know plays anymore x.x; bleh.. El | |
Yeah, High School was when I played a lot... And I mean a lot...
We'd play it at lunch, in study hall, in the morning before school began... Sometimes even during classes...lol And the one week of the year when there would be proficiency tests, we'd get to go in late so we'd meet down at a restaurant near the school and have breakfast and play Magic... (if you passed them once, you didn't have to take them, so you'd get to skip the time when everyone else was taking the tests... and of course all of my friends and I had passed them the first time through, so for the rest of our HS careers, we'd never have to be there that week...lol) We played a lot of chaos... But never any really big games... Mostly 4 player... There was actually one game I witnessed where the winner was decided on Library length... They were at such a standstill that it came down to who ran out of cards first...lol One of my friends was really into it... He'd always have the magazines like Scrye and Inquest and whatever... Back when Magic was the only CCG anyone covered...lol Most of my decks are built around combos or themes... I don't really have any all-purpose decks... For instance, there's one that I call "Infini-tim" ("Tim" or "Timmy" is the name we use for "Tap to deal 1 damage to opponent" creatures... Like Prodigal Sorcerers...) Anyways, the engine driving the Infini-tim deck consists of Aluren (all players may cast any creature with cost 3 or less without paying the cost and as an instant), Concordant Crossroads or any other card that makes creatures unaffected by summoning sickness ("Haste" in the modern terminology...lol), a few Timmy cards, and a creature called Wizard Mentor that you can tap to return target creature to your hand along with Wizard Mentor... Get this combo out, and all you have to do is play a free Timmy, which has no sickness, tap him to deal the 1 damage, play a free Mentor, tap him to pick up the Timmy and the Mentor... Repeat to infinity...lol Infinite damage per turn... Wipes out everything and everyone... Of course you have to make sure to keep a few counterspells in your hand in case someone tries to counter one of your cards... But if you pull it off...you instantly smoke everyone... Anothe of my decks is nothing but Wurms... (well, and some elves for added mana) That deck is usually a killer... There's nothing like getting really big creatures out really fast... Especially when some of them are 6/6 tramplers...lol Good times... | |
Good try, but your goblin mentor/timmy/etc. combo does not work by tournament rules! Reason? Play phases. Though most people ignore them, they are still there. Here's the exact reason that your combo would not work:
*We are in the Main Phase* 1) You play your timmy and your mentor. 2) You declare attackers (your timmy) *Note that now we are out of the main phase and into the combat phase. In the combat phase, instants cannot be played* 3) After attacking with your timmy, you return it to your hand. *Note that we are still in the unresolved battle phase* 4) You cannot play your timmy and mentor again, because even instants cannot be played in the combat phase. Your turn is as good as over, unless you implement another enhancing combo like Sieze the Day (untap target creature. This is followed by another main phase and another attack phase, and it has flashback!) and Fork to attack a total of 5 times. The same applies to another combo that is red: Goblin Churigen (0, Sacrafice a goblin: return target goblin from your graveyard to your hand), 2 Raging Goblins, 1 Seal of Fire. You would kill one raging goblin with your seal of fire, attack with the other, sacrafice it to bring up the other one, attack with that one, etc. It would be cool, but it's not legal! Any way, the reason that I want the lesser mana cost is BECAUSE I have a high-upkeep deck. I'm planning on adding more mana-producing artifacts to it to make its job even easier, though. The point is, I need that little edge to make myself able to play that spirit. Now, my deck is NOT a counterspell deck, so in theory everything should be out in play and I should play a card as soon as I draw it, as it is not a discard deck either. Your opinions are appriciated though, so keep on talking! -Lord of Water | |
It's no less worth it than any other MTG card. My favored deck consists of no creatures, a good mixture of none of the land types (as well as a handful of no specialty lands), no basic attack spells, and no "ace in the hole" type instants that I can throw at my opponent at a moment's notice. With this strategy, I have never lost a game, either in a tournament or regular play, and have money left over for important things, like the sourcebooks GURPS Luxembourg, GURPS Indoor Plumbing, GUPRS Obscure Science Fiction Property You've Never Heard Of, and GURPS Gurps.
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Lesbian Assassin wrote:
It's no less worth it than any other MTG card. My favored deck consists of no creatures, a good mixture of none of the land types (as well as a handful of no specialty lands), no basic attack spells, and no "ace in the hole" type instants that I can throw at my opponent at a moment's notice. With this strategy, I have never lost a game, either in a tournament or regular play, and have money left over for important things, [snipped GURPS ramble] Heh. I was almost suckered by my friends into starting into MtG when I travelled to Thunder Bay. Didn't, haven't, and am happy. =) The only reason I played the game -- with my friends' decks -- was to look at the cards for game ideas. In fact, that sounds like a good plan. I'll go look at some online, now. | |
heheheh, my infinity decks ran around Enduring Renewal back before they nerfed it (then I heard that they made it work like it used to again @.@ oh well *L* )
Enduring Renewal (least originaly) brought any creature that hit your graveyard back to your hand (they later changed it so it only happened at end of turn). Downside being, (I cant remember exactly, but I think it was that you couldnt cast new creatures @.@ ) Now, toss a couple or ornithopters in there, add a fallen angel or two ( 4/4, sac a creature to it to add +1/+1 ), a couple of ashnods alters (sac a creature to get 2 colourless mana), a smattering of drain lifes (like I said, black/ white deck ^_~ ), one or two of those sac to make it so a creature doesnt deal dammage, and you gain the life from the attack instead artifacts, and some of the usual white healing stuff, and boom! *LOL* Then I tossed in a demonic tutor, the cheesy wannaa be instant tutor, and a howling mine just so I could get the cards out asap ^_~ It actually worked fairly often @.@ till my friends started playing decks -just- to beat mine *L* ^^ El | |
What have you got against M:TG, Spuzzum? It's a game that involves a lot of thinking and strategy, both in-game, meta-game and pre-game. It's got a huge card base with endless combo and deck possibilities. After all that, you have a few million people who play and a half-million people who play regularly and are pretty darn good! Even if that isn't everything you could ask of a card game that you can get started in for $20-$50, I can promise you that you'll never find one that has it better.
-LoW | |
There's quite a bit of merit there, but really, I think most of the strategy lies in the marketing department and not the game itself.
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Leftley wrote:
There's quite a bit of merit there, but really, I think most of the strategy lies in the marketing department and not the game itself. I agree with what Fallout 2 parodied it as: "Tragic: The Garnering". I have nothing against the game itself; it was a great pastime on my trip across the continent in '98. I simply don't like the commercialism of it, and I'm not about to waste $100 or so to get an advantage at it. (When I play games, I play them for fun, but I do want to win. =P) And then there's the whole WotC issue, which I'll neatly sidestep for now. Fortunately, WotC isn't bad enough to warrant an entry on my Egotistical Bigots list, but they're still bad. But, like I said, I'll sidestep that. =P | |
But the Timmy is not declared as an attacker... It is using a special ability to deal damage directly... I'm not exactly current on the errata...but I believe that is considered more along the lines of a fast effect than an attack... Much like an instant...
So I'm still well within the confines of my main phase... And the combo should work just fine... Although I'm sure they've somehow barred it from tournament play...lol We never adhere to most league rules... We're even rather loose on prohibiting restricted/banned cards... | |
Lord of Water wrote:
Even if that isn't everything you could ask of a card game that you can get started in for $20-$50, I can promise you that you'll never find one that has it better. That's exactly the problem with it: it's an arms race game. Even in other "power games", it's usually an investment of time or measuarable accomplishments that brings you more power... in M:TG, "strategy" is a euphemism for having the money and free time to acquire good cards. Like I've said elsewhere, I'd gladly pay $20 or $50 for a game, if it's worth it... and I actually believe a card gamee could be worth that kind of money. I wouldn't pay $20 for a game, though, if this game gave an advantage over me to someone just because they're willing and able to pay $40. | |
I'm not a fan of the arms race either. There have been plenty of card games I'd be willing to try, but I'm too much of a collector to avoid going broke. I don't care if it's an orc or a pocket monster. I don't have the money to catch them all. I'd rather have one deck of cards for everyone, letting strategy and luck of the draw rule.
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Very good points... I shudder to think what I've plunked down over the years into these cards...lol It might even rival what I've spent gathering my huge DBZ collection...
Although the cost is spread out over long enough time that you really don't notice it... It's not like you need to buy $10-20 every week... Although some people do...lol But I feel that the game's entertainment value is well worth the investment... You can be up and playing (fairly well, I might add) with about the money it takes to buy one video game... And not even having to buy the system to play it on...lol And it's much better than a video game because of the replay value... No two games are the same, and no two decks are the same... And you're only limited by your imagination and understanding of the rules (well, as long as you have a decent collection of cards...lol)... And if you get tired of your cards, but don't want to buy more... You can always trade them with friends... That in itself is a fun event... Get a few buddies together and start passing around each other's collections... Make offers, make deals, get to see what else is out there... Even by yourself, the game is entertaining... Just looking throguh your own cards to find the right combination or strategy is often fulfilling... And then testing them out is quite a rush... All in all I've enjoyed my experiences with M:tG... No less than I would have enjoyed any other entertainment that I could have bought with the money I've spent...lol And I get to keep them forever... | |
I suppose you're semi-correct on that one...
Generally speaking, someone who can spend the most money and get the "best" (relative term) cards usually stands a better chance... But I've seen many cases where a "card lord" has been beaten badly by someone just starting out... I've been beaten badly by newbies... And I've got boxes and boxes of these cards... I'd say I've got at least 30 decks built at this very moment and around three large card boxes full of spares... But I still get beat... It all reality, buying power is only a part of winning the game... It actually does come down to proper deck building and good playing... The best cards in the game are worthless if used improperly... | |
SuperSaiyanGokuX wrote:
I suppose you're semi-correct on that one... I'm not saying that to the spoiled goes the victory... the fact is, luck is always going to be a factor, and yes, it should be a factor, and skill is going to be a factor, and yes, it should be a factor, and intelligence is going to be a factor, and yes, it should be a factor, and experience with the game is going to be a factor, and yes, it should also be a factor... but money is going to be a factor, too, and how does that serve to make M:TG a better game? | |
You're right, it doesn't...
But I feel that the other factors weigh heavily enough that it isn't big enough of a detriment to the game, either... I'm not trying to defend that aspect... Just saying that it's not as bad as it seems...lol | |
Just because somebody spends an extra $40.00 on cards (even every month) does not really mean that they have the edge. Over the years, the size of my M:TG collection has swelled to > 8000 cards. I get new cards maybe once every month or two months. Guess what? My ass was whooped just today by somebody who went out and bought two tournament packs and three boosters as their first-ever-owned M:TG cards and built a deck from them, all for a total of $30.00. The person knew how to play, of course, but my collection being hundreds of times bigger then his had little do with my loss or his win. It -was- luck of the draw, and it -was- strategy.
-Lord of Water | |
Its only like one more mana to cast the air elementals anyways isnt it? ^^
El, who hasnt played magic since tempest had just came out @.@ she should really look at her cards..