I just wanted to know what everyone thinks of Fan games?
I mean, DBZ Fan games are annoying, but what about those ones that didnt get out of hand? The ones that drew new people to BYOND.
Sure a original storyline, characters and world is great, Im all for it, but if you do it right a fan game could be just as good, even better if you work hard enough.
Not all Fan games bring in hords of 10 Year Old newbies yelling
"TEll ME H0W ChanGE Th3 NAmE OF ThE wOrld to SSj3654^53@ JimMY GOGeTUnnkHaN IN teH DBGT: GeNIsis coDe I mADe",
Idiot to Normal Translation:
Can you tell me how to change the name of the world in the copy of DBGT: Genisis someone gave me.
Then calling you a gay homo non-1337 fag who F***'s there Mum.
-DogMan
PS. I wasnt sure if this should go in the General or Babble section. Ive notice people get less annoyed if you post in the Babble by mistake then General so I choose Babble =)
ID:274413
 Jan 21 2002, 1:45 am
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I think fan games are well-intentioned but often tragic attempts on a person's part to share their experience of something with others. Some are more successful in what they set out to accomplish, and some less.
With the legality issue, I'm a little torn; I think there are some legitimate fan games out there, but I think none have come to the BYOND community yet. Some are honest gestures of love toward the material, whereas others are just stupid rip-offs. I think most DBZ games fall into the latter category; and unfortunately, though I think Dragon Warrior Online has a lot going for it, it's basically a different game using the same name and that ends up putting it in the latter category too. Yet fan games for Star Trek have existed since practically the dawn of mainframe computing; these were good and simple games. A game based on another game and called by the same name has to go under the rip-off category, even if it's good. DWO would do well to shed the trappings of Dragon Warrior and use a different name. As for games based on a TV show or comic, there's a little more leeway. To put it in a different perspective, ask yourself this question: Does the storyline of the original material allow for a game in which players can explore the universe freely? DBZ is based on powering up and fighting things; this severely restricts not only the interest of the universe but the potential to which one can explore it, because just about any possible game is going to follow along the same lines. Lummox JR | |
Does anyone really think that a couple hundred people playing a fan game is going to hurt the creators, emotionally or financially? No, I don't think so. I also don't think the opposite. I have no opinion on that subject, because it's not my opinion that matters, nor is it yours. It is the creators.
If you know for a fact that the owners of your subject matter like and encourage fan material (as do the respective owners of Star Trek and Star Wars), knock yourself out. If you don't know, or worse, know for a fact that the owners don't like fan games (*cough* Bid For Power *cough*), then you don't have the right to make a fan game. When it comes to people's rights, it's not up to a bunch of 13 year old boys to decide what will or will not hurt someone. Right now, when you wouldn't know creative vision if it artistically bit you in the butt, anyone who tells you not to make a DBZ or other fan game is "mean" and "stupid." It's not until you have ideas of your own (and start trying to protect them) that you'll realize the importance of an idea. These same DBZers who say they aren't hurting anyone yell and scream like dying cats if they suspect that someone stole "their" icons or "their" ideas. ("I can tell you stole my icons! All of your characters look just like mine!" No $#!+.) Whoever you're talking about that's making a game based on Zelda and saying it's different does sound silly. He or she should do what I'm doing instead... make a game inspired by Zelda. Yes, there's a difference. The movie Forbidden Planet, about a space-age hermit who discovers the powerful remnants of a long-dead alien civilization, was inspired by William Shakespeare's The Tempest. Needless to say, there were no aliens or robots in the Bard's text, nor were there wizards or elementals in the movies... and it wasn't a matter of just changing the setting and names. Forbidden Planet was a creation in its own right. For another example, when Stephen King sat down to write 'Salem's Lot, he had a copy of Bram Stoker's Dracula in his hand. His vision was to create "a modern Dracula." This doesn't mean taking Dracula and bringing him to the modern world, or just changing the names, places, and dates, and updating the dialogue. He wove a completely new story, similar enough in places to evoke the feeling of the original story in those who had read it. Spelloria, like Forbidden Planet and 'Salem's Lot, is a creation in its own right. The "extra-Zeldaey" elements I've put in (like having a boomerang weapon, and the whimsical graphical touches) are there for the same reason that the people who remake movies and TV shows always find a way to work the original stars in as cameos: homage. If you look at Spelloria as a Zelda rip-off, you'll quickly conclude it's a lousy one. The boomerangs work differently. The gameplay is too dissimilar. I've read the same types of game reviews you have... a lot of them seem to criticize a game for "copying" a better-known one, and then count it as a shortcoming every time the game does something new! | |
Creativity is just the art of hiding your sources, don't you know? The trick is to not make games that are similar to currently-popular ones.
Of course, thne you can do something completely different because no one else bothered to do it, like Ensya, which isn't a board game, and isn't violent, and therefore couldn't be copied by any pre-existing thing in the world so far... I mean, who in their right mind would play a non-violent adventure game? Of course, since they can't acuse me of stealing my game ideas, they accuse me of stealing my graphics... And if they couldn't do that they'd accuse me of stealing smileys, or the concept of gems that do stuff... | |
While I have no problem with fan games as games where people who are fans of something get together to play something based on the theme they like, I do think that in BYOND's case it tends to get in the way.
Ever notice that the only people with money on BYOND are the designers? Could that have anything to do with the idea that any people who visit BYOND looking for games will only see a massive horde of DBZ games, and most aren't even worth the time required to log in and download them. I think if BYOND's game listings were based only on quality games, while "other" games, such as fan games and just downright poorly made ones that some people love to play, were listed somewhere where they wouldn't be noticed by the game-seeking public. I'd be happy if, assuming that Dreamseeker always has a button for the hub and games live, that it only showed games that were live from the official listing, because as I've said before, it's embarrassing to show someone your game when it's surrounded by a dozen DBZ games. Back on topic, the only thing I really dislike about fan games is that they reflect poorly on BYOND because they're usually poor quality to begin with, and they just ... look bad! I think it'd be great if BYOND had a section that was open to the general public and a section that wasn't! But games live is willing to show anything to anybody, which in my opinion, is bad. I think this turned into more of a Dreamseeker-based-games-live!-bashing post than anything about fan games. :) | |
Untitled_Boy wrote:
If it is someone's dream to make a game based on their favorite game, or tv show, so be it. Anyone who cries out about the legal or moral issues that this brings up needs to put things in perspective: a couple hundred people playing a fan game won't hurt the feelings of the original developers, nor will it financially impact them. This is simply not true in all cases, and it's the excuse people use even when they are, say, selling Simpsons t-shirts, which directly impacts the ability for the creators to make money off their own Simpsons t-shirts. Anyway, as Lexy says, the proof is in the reaction of fan gamers themselves: We have had dozens and dozens of cases of fan gamers coming in screaming about people stealing their ideas/code/icons. But hey, I thought doing that didn't hurt anyone, eh? | |
I've read videogame magazines where a "mario 64 ripoff 3d platformer" game is torn apart for poorly mimicking mario. If you write a program that will randomly pick words out of the dictionary and arrange them in such a manner that they mostly make sense syntactically, you've got a program that can write better videogame reviews than almost any professional videogame reviewer out there. | |
I realize that everyone is entitled to his opinion, and I respect this. I also hope that you will all respect mine as you read this letter. For the sake of review, it will not be easy to pave the way for people of every sex, race, and socioeconomic status to fulfill their own spiritual destiny. Nevertheless, we must attempt to do exactly that, for the overriding reason that SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's effusions all stem from one, simple, faulty premise -- that it is known for its sound judgment, unerring foresight, and sagacious adaptation of means to ends. Strange, isn't it, how ill-bred couch potatoes are always the first to open the gates of hell? SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme will go to almost any extreme to prevent my message of truth from getting out, by which I mean that thanks to SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme, I'm now suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. To cap that off, SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme is not a responsible citizen. Responsible citizens plant markers that define the limits of what is delusional and what is not. Responsible citizens decidedly do not utilize legal, above-ground organizing in combination with illegal, underground tactics to take credit for others' accomplishments.
So, why do SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's shock troops want to ingratiate themselves with SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme? I guess it just boils down to the question: To what degree is SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme going to replace love and understanding with obstructionism and stoicism? Let me give you a hint: It would have you believe that we should all bear the brunt of its actions. Let me recap that for you, because it really is extraordinarily important: Its insufferable ideals are in full flower, and their poisonous petals of fanaticism are blooming all around us. For those of you who don't know, most people want to be nice; they want to be polite; they don't want to give offense. And because of this inherent politeness, they step aside and let SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme hamstring our efforts to denounce those who claim that it is beyond reproach. By this, I mean that it is easy to see faults in others. But it takes perseverance to point out that the emperor has no clothes on. If anything, SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme is always prating about how mediocrity and normalcy are ideal virtues. (It used to say that it is always being misrepresented and/or persecuted, but the evidence is too contrary, so it's given up on that score.) I don't know if I speak for anybody but myself on this, but SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme likes to compare its comments to those that shaped this nation. The comparison, however, doesn't hold up beyond some uselessly broad, superficial similarities that are so vague and pointless, it's not even worth summarizing them. There are three fairly obvious problems with SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's disquisitions, each of which needs to be addressed by any letter that attempts to take off the kid gloves and vent some real anger at SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme. First, SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme is out of control, like a runaway freight train. Second, SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's consistent lack of regard for others will perpetuate the myth that it has the mandate of Heaven to assuage the hungers of its surrogates with servings of fresh scapegoats in a lustrum or two. And third, ignorance is bliss. This may be why its adherents are generally all smiles. You might think that anyone who doesn't know that SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme is foul-mouthed must be inhabiting a different world. Well, if that's the case, then I'm afraid SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's flunkies must have spent the past month on Mars. SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme is an organization of questionable moral character. Don't make the mistake of thinking otherwise. SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme does, and that's why it wants us to feel sorry for the sappy doofuses who impede the free flow of information. I insist we should instead feel sorry for their victims, all of whom know full well that SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme is almost unique among the most snivelling savages you'll ever see in that it espouses an unctuous view of reality and a defense of inimical terrorism. That concept can be extended, mutatis mutandis, to the way that its conjectures are not our only concern. To state the matter in a few words, it doesn't want us to act honorably. It would rather we settle for the meatless bone of revanchism. It's not necessarily the case that SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's prevarications serve no purpose other than to pose a threat to personal autonomy and social development. On the contrary, I want to expand people's understanding of SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's anal-retentive machinations. But first, let me pose an abstract question. Why does SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme insist on boring holes in the hull of the boat in which it is also a passenger? You see, SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme is guided by the sick ethos of nativism. To top that off, I have never been in favor of being gratuitously uppity. I have also never been in favor of sticking my head in the sand or of refusing to make plans and carry them out. As I mentioned before, you probably know exactly what I mean. But let me add that its idiotic claim that the only way to expand one's mind is with drugs -- or maybe even chocolate -- is just that, an idiotic claim. I have no problem with the manifestly obvious statement that I find SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's quips highly insulting. I have no problem with the idea that SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's whitewash of the issue offers no real analysis of the situation that resulted in its rash, short-sighted slogans in the first place. And I have no problem with the special privileges occasionally granted to irresponsible, gutless geeks. What I do have a problem with are SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's parasitic whinges. It is grossly misleading merely to claim that SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's backers all look like SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme, think like SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme, act like SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme, and ruin people's lives, just like SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme does. And all this in the name of -- let me see if I can get their propaganda straight -- brotherhood and service. Ha! For one thing, investigators who have spent many years attempting to penetrate the dark recesses of SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's pestiferous underworld frequently conclude that it would be downright distasteful for SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme to besmirch the memory of some genuine historic figures. But more important, we must fight scurrility and slander. As mentioned above, however, that is not enough. It is necessary to do more. It is necessary to contribute to the intellectual and spiritual health of the body politic. Let me close by reminding you that SaBeRsoft's DungeonMaster X-treme's historical record of moonstruck, unruly zingers is clearer than the muddled pronouncements of its comrades. Sincerely, Master Reviewer Aeonn | |
Minor point: Most 10 year old newbies were not around to play games such as Dragon Warrior (before VII). If I had He-Man or She-Ra games when I was growing up...
Anywho... I don't mind cameo appearances since they tend to be short and show the creators are geeks like me. Full unlicensed games don't have a lot of competition with licensed games in the quality area. However, when it comes down to having to build a game and keep it's continuity strong enough for fans, completely making your own content gives more room for expansion without ticking fans off. I don't think it's worthless to attempt a fan game. However, I want people to be fans of my game, not just fans of the content. Game developers need to be able to focus on the gameplay first. PS: *adopts a guilty expression* I always thought I could have done something great with the Cleopatra 2525 license. | |
Damn. When I first started reading this, I thought you had dug out an exceptionally high quality review from somewhere to prove my wrong. :P
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I don't think they hurt me, so more power to them. I don't think quite as much about the average fangame player, though. :)
Z | |
Anyone who claims that changing the graphics and story of a game is better than making a fan game is fooling themselves. I've read videogame magazines where a "mario 64 ripoff 3d platformer" game is torn apart for poorly mimicking mario. A person claiming that their game is any better than a fan game because it is based upon a game like Zelda, and they changed the graphics, story, added a few things and changed game play mechanics is fooling themselves. Big time. Not to say that method of game developement is bad either, but I can't respect someone who would make a game in such a fashion and then bash fan games for "ripping off the creations of others." Heck, everything that we say or do or program is based off of something we've learned or seen from others. No one will ever again be able to make a 2d platformer that someone doesn't say is just "Mario with extras."
Anyone who says that they can't have fun, or despise playing a fan game needs to take the stick out of their backsides and put their ego aside. A game is meant to give those who play it fun, and if the game is a fan game, and a person can have fun playing it, then there is no point in regarding it as any less worthy than any other game-they are meant to be sources of entertainment. I think that in the byond community, a few of the coders who are respected for some reason or another and have been here awhile have decided that they don't like fan games, and those who want to be respected in the byond community had better not like them either. And when it comes down to it, they're just games-meant for a bit of entertainment and a way to pass the time...jeez.