Let's look at a scenario:
Two players play a massively multiplayer for a period of three years. One of them is a die-hard roleplayer, the other is a die-hard powergamer.
The powergamer figured out which monster is the easiest to kill vs. the experience reward gain for doing so, found where that monster respawns, and has spent the three years killing it, over and over again. The powergamer always groups with the number and type of characters that will yield the highest bonus to experience points gained. At the end of 3 years, the powergamer is level 2,613 and fears nothing in the game, except powergamers who have been playing for 4 years.
The die-hard roleplayer has spent the three years wandering hither and yon, having merry adventures with characters that seems the most like-minded, compatible, or interesting. When not adventuring, this character finds a tavern and swaps stories of adventures past and/or imagined. At the end of 3 years, the die-hard roleplayer is level 5, and fears nothing in the world, for the character has lived an honorable life in defense of virtue and anticipates a considerable reward in the next world.
If you're making a roleplaying game, which player would you rather reward, the first one or the second one? If it's the second one, how do you go about doing that, knowing that any mechanism you use for reward, if it's administered by the computer, can be learned, dissected, and manipulated by the power gamer? I've experimented in the past with online RPGs that have no experience/character growth system... no one seemed to like that.
So, for my latest project, I've settled on another solution: instead of using an experience system to simulate how a character advances over time, I simply have the characters advance over time. After you've logged in X hours, you get benefit Y. This has the same basic effect as an experience system, except that to reap the benefit, you don't have to spend those hours performing some mindless task that may or may not be in any way related to your conception of your character. Instead, you can spend them wandering hither and yon, doing what you think your character should be doing. In essence, you're being "rewarded" for playing your character the way you would play him or her if no one was telling you what to do.
After announcing this in game, I've heard two complaints: one, "I don't want to have to spend hours playing just to get some skill ups,","Someone could log in and just sleep for hours and get as many skill bonuses as everyone else.", and "It's like it doesn't matter what we do." I think both complaints reflect a flaw in perception, a result of being too accustomed to the "other way" of doing things.
After all, when people play a regular MUD, they'll happily spend hours playing just to get a level up... the always-elusive "next level" becomes the overriding concern, an end unto itself. The idea in my system isn't that you log in and play for hours to get advancement... you log in and play for hours because you want to play, and while you're at it, you get advances just for being yourself. It's like a win-win situation.
As for the second complaint... let's go back to our powergamer and our roleplayer. The powergamer has spent rhree years logging in every day and sleeping for hours. The roleplayer has spent three years logging in every day and playing the game. They both have the same number of skill points. The roleplayer also has three years worth of actual gaming experience, fond memories, friends, allies, enemies, a storehouse of useful and possibly unique items, and so on. How exactly is the powergamer coming out ahead? If that's cheating, I say let 'em cheat.
And for the complaint that it doesn't matter what you do... well, if the only reason your actions can "matter" is if you get points for doing it, you're better off playing Super Mario Bros. than a RPG. There, you get points just for breaking bricks. The whole idea here is that rather than having me or the computer put a value on your actions, you can decide what matters and what doesn't.
Any thoughts, concerns, suggestions on this system? Or on other systems to take the edge out of powergaming?
ID:265128
 Jun 2 2002, 5:07 pm
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Oh, yeah, things like that (well, not so much things like that) are planned... they'll be called story sessions. As far as wars go, I'll mostly leave that for players to declare on each other.
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Maybe a maximum experience can be gained daily?
For example. Mr. Powergamer goes on a killing spree for 2 hours, and reaches his experience limit for the day. So, since his work is done, he decides to go have some fun RP. The RP'er can gain exp as his leisure, and not to fear that the evil powergamer will become level 5000 far before him. The disadvantage I see is that everybody will be advancing at the same rate, which is kind of...bad? There is probably a solution of somesort to this too, but it's late and that was my last idea before the half-awake state settled in on me like is does every night. - Malver | |
Lesbian Assassin wrote:
If you're making a roleplaying game, which player would you rather reward, the first one or the second one? If it's the second one, how do you go about doing that, knowing that any mechanism you use for reward, if it's administered by the computer, can be learned, dissected, and manipulated by the power gamer? I've experimented in the past with online RPGs that have no experience/character growth system... no one seemed to like that. My thought on this is that quest systems have never really been studied in the kind of depth I'd like to see in a good RPG. A quest-based RPG (with many choices of quests) would be utterly fascinating. A game with an intensively quest-oriented design would short-circuit most of these flaws. Most games are instead built on a level system that relies on mindless tasks like battles. The only challenge is choosing the right battles and staying alive, which eventually becomes trivial. Or to get up a particular skill, a player will train at it for hours and hours--but it makes a lot more sense that training some of the time would allow for learning while they're offline. My concept for an ideal, realistic RPG is one in which 1) all combat is dangerous at any level, but usually not necessary, and 2) training is something that must be done with time. For an example of the latter: pseudocode/skill After announcing this in game, I've heard two complaints: one, "I don't want to have to spend hours playing just to get some skill ups,","Someone could log in and just sleep for hours and get as many skill bonuses as everyone else.", and "It's like it doesn't matter what we do." I think both complaints reflect a flaw in perception, a result of being too accustomed to the "other way" of doing things.[snip] As for the second complaint... let's go back to our powergamer and our roleplayer. The powergamer has spent rhree years logging in every day and sleeping for hours. The roleplayer has spent three years logging in every day and playing the game. They both have the same number of skill points. The roleplayer also has three years worth of actual gaming experience, fond memories, friends, allies, enemies, a storehouse of useful and possibly unique items, and so on. How exactly is the powergamer coming out ahead? If that's cheating, I say let 'em cheat. You're right on this, but there's also a real flaw there too: "Sleeping" online you can do perfectly easily and the amount of time spent at it would definitely reflect a bigger advantage if the powergamers just stayed logged in for hours (or forever). Knowledge and item hoards and contacts wouldn't exist for them, but there'd be other perks. My thought on this is to set up a system whereby a player who's in often and does things in the game is able to advance their character, as if logged in, while offline--for days if need be. As has been suggested before (here, I think), an automated series of tasks with various priorities would allow a character to be a virtual NPC while offline, a player while online. They could earn money, train at skills or tasks, etc. And for the complaint that it doesn't matter what you do... well, if the only reason your actions can "matter" is if you get points for doing it, you're better off playing Super Mario Bros. than a RPG. There, you get points just for breaking bricks. The whole idea here is that rather than having me or the computer put a value on your actions, you can decide what matters and what doesn't. I think a good RPG should be like life, but more fantastical and more fun. People decide their own priorities, and get different things out of any game. I couldn't agree more that enjoyment outranks points. Lummox JR | |
Dunno how much help Id be in this area..
An idea or two, depending how my tired mind works ^_~ 1) Instead of basing a game on 'beating stuff up' or 'doing quests' or just generaly lazing around with a bunch of oddly speaking people (most rpers Ive come across are like that.. kinda kills the whole effect of rping for me if thier speach sounds less authentic then windows xp's default voice..) why not shift things around a bit. Or add perhaps. Add different catagories of things that give exp, or whatever your using as a way to advance. You wanna kill stuff, go for it, but after awhile its gonna get either boring, or the benefits arent gonna be so great anymore. Wanna explore? Sure, go right ahead. Maybe the first time you enter some new region, youll get some kind of bonus.. Wanna just hang around? well that one gets kinda tough @.@ Maybe stick the timed system in there.. if you spend so much time -active- (wouldnt be hard to stick a timer so you know when the last command was.. ) rping, and -not- getting complained about by other rpers, you get exp.. or whatever ^^ Another idea, would be to do away with stats almost completely. What your char is born with is what you get. Set it up so everything comes from items or training. Items you can get from creatures, or buy, and training you can get from training at a gym or something. Then implement different meathods of getting -money-. Hunters get paid to bring in symbols that they've killed something. Shopkeepers get paid by how much profit they make. Tradesmen get money by buying from the hunters, making something, and selling to the shopkeepers. Perhaps have information as a reasource too, so explorers / questers could do something for info, and then sell it to a library or a spy network or something ^^ El | |
Wait a minute...what your born with is not what you get. I used to be chubby...then I musta go my metabolism working and I'm pretty skinny. I used to be short, now I'm tall. I used to be weak, but now I'm strong. I used to be uber cool but now I'm...lesser uber cool?
That makes no sense. People change. | |
It's an interesting concept. I do dislike the idea of getting exp for simply being logged in. Your game will be full of corpses who do nothing at all. Even most roleplayers will leave their character in the game while they aren't playing, in order to get the experience bonus.
You could check client.inactivity and stop players from gaining exp if they've been inactive too long. You might also keep track of how long they've been doing the same action(s) to ward against people who use macro programs while they are away. You shouldn't get much exp for scrounging under the same rock for 15 hours. | |
Lesbian Assassin wrote:
[snip] "Someone could log in and just sleep for hours and get as many skill bonuses as everyone else."[snip] This problem exists in ROM (and probably in other Merc/Diku derivatives too). Players may have the goal of leveling, but age increases the experience gain. Some players sleep for hours so that the little work they do gives them larger rewards. It tends to be viewed with some disgust, but I think the server issue is more important. Is updating their connections worth it? They might not send much input, but they still get output. If there is a large enough number of abusers, I could see this possibly causing problems. However, if they are paying for it, I can see how it's their bandwidth to waste. | |
Thats the basic idea of Dark Ages a 2d(Semi 3d) game i've been playing for a couple years...and of my char in particular...it has its own govenment system where the players who have the most clout become demagogues and they make, change and delete rules...there are over 100 'masters' or people who are 99+ who have been playing only to be the strongest and have only been playing for a matter of months. Many people you meet in the game and become 'masters' often lose their personality and think they own everything. My character, Linq, is only level 86 and i have been playing narly 24 times as long as anyone in the game and am considered an elder...whenever someone has a problem with me their solution is to "take it to the arena" thinking strength makes someone who they are...just thought i would share this with you and with it the suggestion of a player run government system...
[Edit] i would also like to suggest npc towns that players could possibly take over and own, upgrade, fortify and produce things for it. | |
The government system in Dark Ages usually devolves to "he with the most accounts wins". I haven't been involved with the game politics since Dave returned as the game director, so I don't know if he managed to straighten it out any, but it's common in this so-called roleplaying enforced game to hear people say "Sure. I'll vote for you with all my other characters."
Some of the things about Dark Ages that do enhance roleplaying are the contests. Players submit stories, biographies, written in game research, and art to the library and are rewarded with title (a legend mark), experience, money, and even a little political clout (Booo politics!) for exceptional works. It gets players more involved in the game, lets them work on something for the game even when they aren't playing, and enhances the background of the world all at the same time. | |
Easy solution to the latter problem, don't give em squat if their client.inactivity is beyond a certain point.
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Hmmm.... You could make it so that stats can matter for different things besides battle.
For example, you could choose to be a Pro Athlete. You need skills of course to win, but like in real team sports, you have to play as a team and not just individuals. Of course, that requires Roleplaying. They might have the advantage of getting way more gold then other people. That would force Roleplayers to become the wariors and stuff. Of course, you'll need a disadvantage for that class, but I'm too lazy to think of one. | |
True, but once you hit a certain age those changes tend to... slow down @.@ *L* Its always possible to simulate aging in a game.. In fact Ive run across one online rpg that simulates the aging cycle from birth. When your chars first born it can barely see, and barely do anything else, thus -in theory- tying itself to the community from which it was born..
Basicaly what I was trying to shy away from in my post was the constant rpgs where you suddenly get stronger, faster, more healthy, and smarter from running around beating on things. Sure, it happens, but not as fast as games would do it. Course, games are 'played', and have no real basis on reality any farther then they have to in order to be taken seriously.. ^_^ El | |
In my opinion, the roleplayer should be more rewarded. That player is playing the game to enjoy it, whereas the other is simply playing to be able to kill everybody else. Powergamers tend to be the pkers in most games. The only way I have come up with to reward the role players is to set up system like AD&D. Hire GMs to monitor players and grant them experience bonus. Powergamers would be forced to become roleplayers. Eventually, a few roleplayers may become gms and continue the cycle. Now, for my MUD I am building, I plan to have it so the experience bonuses are not noticable, and have a cap per day on them. When a GM grants a player and EXP bonus, it is placed in a sort of buffer that goes into affect when the player logs off. This way, players don't really see what's going on behind the scenes. I think the best way to handle your problem is to have a system of GMs who split up and monitor players communication channels and such and grant XP accordingly.
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If you create a game where killing stuff makes you more powerful, then it will be a game where powerlevelers are common. If you want a game with roleplayers instead, it's pretty simple, don't make killing rewarding.
In most games, players can buy a sword, go out and slay goblins until their heart's content, sack the pitiful goblin fort, get lots of gold and other cheapy goblin artifacts to sell. Well, what a perfect environment for a powerleveler, because anyone who's not sacking goblin villages will be out the money and will this be inferior. Now, you've got another game, where the first time someone attempts to fight a goblin, he'll probably get creamed, especially if that goblin has friends. Whatever makes anyone think that they can just go out and slay monsters anyway? Monsters are supposed to be the ones slaying the people, that's why they're monsters! Okay, so a powerleveler buys a sword and goes out to slay goblins only to get himself killed. No more powerleveler, especially if the game has permadeath. Now, the roleplayer on the other hand, gets to remain alive to actually enjoy the game... | |
Basicaly what I was trying to shy away from in my post was the constant rpgs where you suddenly get stronger, faster, more healthy, and smarter from running around beating on things. Sure, it happens, but not as fast as games would do it. Hey, that still makes sense than becoming a stealthier thief, smarter wizard, or more efficacious priest by beating on things! | |
How about this:
During each game cycle (1 hour, let's say, just to keep with something already in place), there are a series of things that a person can do to get a point of experience or a skill point. Example:
Note that you could add any number of items to that list, and manipulate the maximum number of them that you can get credit for any way you want. Now, under this sytem, a player who logged in and slept would gain 1 skill point per game cycle (1 hour.) However, if that player logged in and their strong badger player got right to work helping a group of lawful foxes build their lodge, he would get at least 2 skill points for that cycle. If he also stopped a theif trying to steal from the him, he would get 3 ponints that cycle. The moral of the story is that though inactivity does pay on some level, the more active your char is the more skill points he can get every cycle. This encourages players to stick to something like lodge building or even become full-time lodge builders (I'll help you with your lodge just so that I can get the extra point of skill for these cycles) and they are being constructive within the game as well as self-helping. Powergamers have their place here, but it'll take a lot more then killing things to get a lot of points. So, under a system like this, to be a real powergamer your char would have to be productive and active, even if not a die-hard roleplayer. -Lord of Water | |
Lummox JR wrote:
My thought on this is that quest systems have never really I think some play-by-mail rpgs do that well, primarily because of the time involved. Oddly enough, I still play a nice PBM called 'Quest' - I've drawn a large wall map of where I have been in that world over the last 3 years... As has been suggested before (here, I think), an The PBM I mentioned above does something similar - when not playing actively, your party practices certain skills (self-training so-to-speak) at a slow rate to make up for the time just 'sitting around' - the problem is that if another party encounters your party while you are on vacation in Hawaii, they could essetially get beaten, robbed, and left to die. You'd never know this until you returned to the game. Personally I like this level of 'offline' realism - your character should be doing something even if you are not actively taking a part in its actions, and you run the risk of what happens when offline. A supplement to this is to do what some text-MUDs do: provide a safe haven (a tavern, temple, or inn) to put your character to sleep in before logging out... gives the player a choice... | |
have GM/admin based adventures.
Busty Bustosus is lost in the woods and "El Vato Loco que se llama Sariat" (<font color = black> the crazy gangsta that is named Sariat</font color = black>) is looking for Busty Bustosus for some Bustariffic times. You must find her before he has his Busty ways with her.
<font color = black> I know Foomer is gonna have good time with that :) </font color = black>
And Wars!!! buwahhahahahahha everybody likes to PK for a reason!
-ST