its staggering how many people struggle to learn DM, never make anything in BYOND, and then move on to c++, VB, or some other language to work on the next smash hit 3D MMORPG. its as if they were all sleeping geniuses and one day they woke up and saw the light that is c++ and suddenly they are moving on to a more powerful programming language to make mindblowing games.
that, however, is a load of bull. anyone who "leaves" BYOND in favor of a more powerful language probably doesn't know a for loop from a hole in the ground. languages are sets of rules. languages don't have power, programmers have the power. the only "power" that c++ or VB gives you is the power to download lots of code from a quick google search. download a tutorial on directx or opengl and a demo on sockets and all of a sudden you're working on a 3D MMORPG! nevermind that the project never gets anywhere, but most projects are never finished anyway. you can blame the collapse of the project on your artist or mapper quitting and nobody will ever know the difference.
even the most complex programs are just a bunch of loops, if statements, and calculations. most programmers wouldn't be able to write those programs, so clearly there's a difference between knowing a language and knowing how to program. if you don't know how to program in DM, the light bulb isn't going to go on if you try c++ or VB. the only difference is the availability of source code on the internet so you can feel like you're accomplishing more with your failures in c++ or VB, but really you're not doing anything that you couldn't have done in DM. once you learn the rules of a language then its time to learn to program. if you instead keep moving on to new languages you might not ever learn to program.
ID:25264
 Jan 3 2007, 12:12 pm
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Jan 3 2007, 12:18 pm
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Xx Dark Wizard xX
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So true.
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Nicely said.
Edit: I am one of those cases that is going backwards. c++ to DM... only because i dont have c++ at home... I learned to code at school ... DM is easy to catch onto. | |
Agreed.
MAN I HAT U ALL IM GOING ON 2 C+ BCUZ I MITE OWN U ALL AT ET | |
See LilMain.
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You know, one of the nice things about BYOND is that you don't have to mess with redoing sockets/network code, graphics display, input handling or anything like that. So you can get straight to your multiplayer project. Yet, if you want to, you can mess with image displays, sound options, input methods, etc. It's a very nice toolset.
It's kind of like wanting to build a house and having a nice set of power and manual tools, but then switching over to wood and iron because they are more powerful and what the tools were built from.... | |
Even in the high level scripting language ActionScript you have to do a good lot of work setting things up before you have a game engine that's even remotely as useful as something that you could create off the bat with DM.
It's from my experience with AS that I now see how valuable and stress-free DM is. If you're programming in C++, DM can only appear 100 fold more attractive. | |
It's kind of like wanting to build a house and having a nice set of power and manual tools, but then switching over to wood and iron because they are more powerful and what the tools were built from.... c++ is a tool itself which can accomplish the same things as DM, so i'd say the analogy is more like DM : c++ :: power tools : hand tools. its possible to make things with hand tools, but its a lot more work and a lot more exhausting. to continue the tool analogy: BYOND gives you a nice table saw. its great for cutting wood. you can cut all the wood you need to build a house. but you can't make curved cuts, at least not easily. a band saw would be a lot easier for making curved cuts. but no matter what you used to cut the wood, the concepts behind house-building still the same. you can be a wiz at using a table saw and cut wood to the exact size you want, but if you don't know how to build a house then it doesn't matter how well you cut the wood, i wouldn't want to live in that house. furthermore, if you don't know how to build anything then all of these tools will seem useless. | |
I cut up downed trees with a hatchet even though there's a perfectly good chainsaw in the garage. Stop insulting me, I like the exercise. =P
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It's also stupid for people to limit themselves to languages, eg "I don't program Perl because I do Python/PHP/Ruby/C/BASIC only"
Programming languages are all tools that one uses, actually programming isn't learned by just knowing the fronts and ends to a language. You can compare programmers to designers pretty easily, too. A designer who says he's a professional because he's excellent at Photoshop is just pulling your leg. Just because you know how to use Photoshop, does not at all mean that you know how to design. I know art students who are excellent at design, and don't know heads or tails of Adobe CS. | |
arguably the smartest programmers ever didn't know c++. its always baffled me why so many people think that c++ is the uber language that you move onto once you've mastered the weaker languages.
it might be harder, but you could study programming without knowing or using any actual programming language. | |
C++ does let you do things that you can't do in DM - and it's also far faster, and doesn't use a virtual machine. Not all languages are the same.
Both DM and C++ are turing-complete, of course, so you can calculate anything you want. It's just a matter of feasibility - it's significantly easier to write a 3D game in C++, and it'll work much better and faster then a 3D game written in DM. That said, if you can't learn DM, get the hell out of any other language. | |
Good point put. DM is arguably one of the easiest programmin languages there are. If you try DM, then say, "OMG, I R GO 2 C++!1" and think you'll succeed, you're a dumbass and deserve to be flamed.
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That said, if you can't learn DM, get the hell out of any other language. Not true. There are some useful scripting languages which are easy to understand, with time. Learning to program isn't necessarily learning to use a language. Just like you need natural language to communicate your ideas and thoughts, doesn't mean you need any natural languages to come up with thoughts or ideas. (Though most of everyone thinks in their primary language. Similarly programmers like thinking of how to implement an algorithm in their favorite language.) You need to learn the logic and reasoning first! | |
I've been trying to learn DM but, haven't been properly motivated enough to get down with it. However, a lack of focus is easy to overcome and since this language is somewhat similar to c++ i was always planning to start here anyways. I do agree with you however. I don't see the point in people moving to a more powerful medium through which to create a game if they can't get down simpler languages. You have to start somwhere right? Then again, you might also have guys concerned about "will people even see this and play it?" or "How could i possible make enough money from this?" Then they gon on to make "real" games. On top of that, you also have guys that simply learn other languages easier than another, but I guess in general I agree with what you're trying to say. Just felt like puting that out there though. Food for thought if you know what I mean.
(Hey Ian XD) | |
I hope you weren't referring to me. I totally respect BYOND, and have made a few things in it, over the past few years (remade one thing about 7 times is more like it) I'm just going with C++ because BYOND isn't suited for the types of things I want to do now.
... and despite using C++, I still design most of my systems around the spirit of BYOND :D | |
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