Really, this is the sort of thing that we need a "Don't put on front page" checkbox for, but as we don't, I'll just have to slightly pollute the member's page.
Anyway, this is a response to Orion Coron's fairly braindead post about "OH NOEZ, THE EVIL ATHEIST CONSPIRICY IS TRYING TO PUSH CHRIST OUT OF CHRISTMAS".
As I have now been blocked from Orion's blog (Presumably for 'dissing' his beliefs and views. Any rational argument counts as an insult to a True Christian), and have been told to take it to mine, I'm doing so (Note that the following is US-centric, because that's where Orion lives, I believe)
The main problem Orion has is this massive persecution complex - like many fundamentalist Christians, he has this idea that the entire world is out to get him and his beliefs. In fact, me pointing out that Christmas is very much stolen from several pagan festivals - Yule, Saturnalia and Sol Invictus being the biggest - is apparently persecution. Orion really needs a dictionary.
When it was pointed out to him that roughly 80% of the US is Christian (In 2001, at least), he then fell back on the good old No True Scotsman method of claiming that only his very select group of True Christians are real Christians, which, of course, means the rest are evil atheistic conspirators. And communists.
This is quite clearly ridiculous. Yes, there's likely to be a fair number of people that don't really believe, but answer that they're Christian to a telephone poll - but these aren't going to be the sort of people that give a damn about religion, because the people that give a damn are fairly firm on their particular ground. You're not going to be persecuted (on religious grounds) by people who don't care about religion. And the number isn't going to be anywhere near the ridiculous number it would have to be to put atheists anywhere near the majority - unless Orion thinks that a little over 60% of Americans claim they're Christian when they really aren't. He's the fundy, I suppose, so that level of inanity can't be completely ruled out. But to anybody with even a tenuous connection to reality, that's a patently ridiculous idea.
He then proceeds to suggest that the particular sects of Christianity lower the numbers enough to make persecution possible. Well, yes - various denominations of Christianity have persecuted other denominations of Christianity throughout history. Often in spectacularly violent and bloody fashions - and not just in England, too. This sort of thing in America led to the original idea of separation of church and state.
But given that various denominations aren't exactly at each other's throats to the same extent nowadays, and given that it's all big-endian versus little-endian, I somehow doubt that his particular denomination is going to be receiving stuff that's on the level of persecution. Orion has massive problems of scale if he thinks someone arguing with him on a website counts as persecution.
He does point out that various denominations are smaller then the atheist/agnostic/no religion contingent, which is indeed true - most denominations have less then the 15% or so for the irreligious group. But given that that 15% includes agnostics, who aren't, as a whole, known for being exceptionally vicious or persecutory, and given that there's absolutely no credible evidence to suggest that the small group of vocal atheists in that 15% are actually, you know, doing anything discriminatory in nature, it's all hogwash. And it's not like there are many atheists in public office - admitting to being a muslim makes winning a seat in the American congress difficult - and leads to outraged discussion over being sworn in over the Qu'ran - imagine the uproar if an atheist tried to get in. Several US states actually have laws still on the books that prohibit an (honest) atheist from gaining public office - of course, they're unenforceable, but that they still exist says something rather interesting about the states in question. In some cases, it's even in the states constitution. Imagine if there was a law banning black people, or Catholics, or some other group from gaining public office! That would die an extremely quick death. But one against atheists? Fine, go ahead. This is not indicative of atheists persecuting people. Quite the opposite, in fact.
You live in a country where several states can actually put creationism in their educational syllabi - and when creationism got struck down, they just moved to 'intelligent design', which is Creationism wearing Groucho Marx glasses. Your president makes repeated public appeals to his religion, and did so in order to get elected. He bases policy decisions - on abortion, on stem cell research, on everything - on his religion. How can you claim that is persecution of Christianity?
Churches are able to blatantly break the law and get away with it - then they cite religious freedom to get away with it, a tremendous piece of equivocation there. Churches can get tax-exempt status in the United States - despite earning ridiculous quantities of money, in some cases. They're even not subject to the same level of scrutiny as other non-profit organisations (At least, according to the IRS). And most churches are decidedly for-profit.
You live in a country where George Bush (senior) can say "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." (Free Inquiry magazine, Autumn 1988, Volume 8, Number 4, page 16), and you think that you're persecuted against? I'm continually thankful I don't live in America, home of the free - and home of the fundamentalist nutcase. Christmas is perfectly safe.
You are not being persecuted against. Stop being ridiculous.
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People have a lot to learn. Most non-christians have not oa clue of what Christianity is about.
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Good thing I was raised Catholic, then, isn't it?
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Have you noticed that I have not deleted one single thread, hmmm? Or banned people from posting on my thread, hmm? That there is shard and single proof that if I was single minded and only thought about religion and did not give respect to other beliefs and what they say, I would have deleted them. Thus prooving that I am more open minded then you know.
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Pity that I'm banned. Oops.
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A. go to a church and really see how and what a church is like. B. go to sosome tolerance classes and understand religion and other various things and finally C. Shut your mouth and don't say another word till you can fully comprehend what a Christian is.
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Really? What is Christianity?
Judging from your reactions and the activities of Christianity in America, I can conclude that Christianity consists of poking your nose into the private business of others, raising hell about homosexuals, abortion, atheists, or imagined threats to your religion, and jubilant calls that your opponents are doomed to eternal hellfire.
The Bible pretty much justifies that one, too. Where else can genocide be considered a good and moral thing?
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I wanted this thread to be extremely proper and in respect for Christmas and Christians plus our beliefs but of course like how it is in the world, we will always have obstacles or problems with non-christians to cause chaos in things where they should not stick their bussiness into.
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I've already demonstrated that Christianity has, by far, a massive grip on the American public - you've hardly got non-christian problems there. As for the thread - guess what! If you allow comments, people will comment. If they want to comment on the general idiocy you display, they will! Congratulations, welcome to the Internets!
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Yes, we all have freedom of speech and freedom to say things, however in the lines of that is to respect us as Christians.
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This is complete bull-puckey. Freedom of speech means you can say what you want, basically. Some limits on 'hate speech' - that is, calling for violence against Christians (Or any other group), etc., is legislated against, but there's no need for me to respect your ridiculous, whacked-out opinions in any way, shape, or form.
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All you had to do (meaning you plus the others downgrading this post) was to simply leave it alone and let people that have a postive aditude to speak here. Yes Jp stated things of what they think Christmas is like. We don't care. That is not what this topic was about.
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I didn't want to leave. I wanted to argue. Didn't want an argument? Shouldn't have allowed comments, then.
Additionally, I am now plural. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated, and your technological and biological distinctiveness will be added to our own.
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I wanted for all Christians on BYOND to remember. I am also very tired of how you twist my words plus the other Christians byond'ers that have posted here to make it look like were wrong.
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Oh, I don't need to twist words. They're quite wrong enough on their own.
Additionally, please don't abuse the apostrophe. Every time you misuse the apostrophe, the invisible sky fairy kills a kitten. Please think of the kittens.
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AS for Jp, I said I was sorry, but you still continue with downgrading. You took my words out of context and used them against me. Now if you fit more of what I wrote instead of taking a few words out in sections, then everything what you said would be a different story.
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No, not really.
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Actully those numbers are false. 80% of America are thought to be Christians. There is a difference from a family that says their a "Christian" and forces it onto their children when simply their just using it as a title really and don't use it strongly which then is compared to a person that takes Christianity to heart and enjoys to use it from their heart strongly for their daily values and actions and are truely devoted.
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I have addressed this already.
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Most of the children population of America are in fact Atheist. In school, their are only like 1/4 of children that are seriously devoted to their religion. Those numbers may be less.
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This is complete and utter crap. If the statistics don't fit, make up more statistics!
Good to see my suspicions confirmed, though - Orion is an indoctrinated child. Of course, I'm only 17, so I can't exactly look down on him for the 'child' bit.
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The two major divisions are Protestants and Catholics. You also have the Jehovas Witness plus other smaller organization of chruches. Christianity has lost a lot of people since the days of the enlightenment because people think, well in order to believe I need fact or need to see it.
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Tada! You've discovered empiricism!
Funnily enough, accepting something without any evidence is generally considered extremely stupid. Unless we're talking about religion.
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Maybe I would stop feeling persecuted if you would stop saying stuff to begin with. Maybe I feel persecuted cause your words and how you twist them to make it look like your right using fact is really hidden to be downgrading.
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This is where we get the lovely idea that being told you're wrong over the Internet, on a public forum, is persecution.
Possibly you need to broaden your horizons, Orion. Christians are not prevented from gaining public office. They are not arrested. They are not killed. They are not required to wear some sort of identifying mark. (...By virtue of Christianity alone, of course)
You're not persecuted in the slightest.
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Their are countless more. Then you have Catholics, then Jahovas Witness plus even cults
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Christianity is a cult. So is any religion. They're just a large cult.
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You said Atheist make up, about 10-15% of America, I believe
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Atheists/agnostics/people that don't care and say it make up roughly 10-15% of America, depending on the poll you look at, yes.
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You should understand these numbers a little bit and understand that wer are not as a whole.
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You all believe in the Sky Fairy, and you all think Jesus was the Messiah.
The rest is all nitpicking.
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And that is more of downgrading. Persecution. Now you wonder why I feel persecuted cause you continue to write more of those comments. That right there is a comment/statment, that persecutes Christians saying we have no foundation and our beliefs are therefore flawed.
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Once again, Orion is extremely deluded when it comes to persecution. I merely pointed out that I was constructing a logical argument, and that if this was 'shattering' the beliefs of Christians, then Christians have extremely weak beliefs.
Also, I used the word 'some'. As in 'some Christians'. Please understand what that meant. I mean, it wasn't a difficult sentence to parse.
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A foudnation means that you have organized thoughts thus by your statement, you are stating that our beliefs are flawed. That is called intolerance, if I may add.
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No, that's not intolerance. Stating that your beliefs are flawed is called 'the basis of having one set of ideas rather then another set of ideas'. Intolerance would be calling for you to be banned from public office, or refusing to associate with somebody purely because they are Christian.
There follows an extremely muddled section where Orion discusses how evangelism is good but bad and springs from fear and we don't want atheist get hurt our beliefs.
He then dismisses a sarcastic statement I made - basically, pointing out to him that a multiplicity of atheists on BYOND doesn't mean we're out to get anyone in particular - by saying that he knows atheists IRL. Yes, I'm aware of this. You should investigate the use of hyperbole and sarcasm as a rhetorical device - you may find it useful. Well, once you can spell. And use correct grammar. It won't be as effective until then.
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Bottom line, am i correct? You didn't like what I wrote so you wanted to proove me wrong, am I correct?
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Ummm... yes? I'm not sure why this is presented as a major victory. I thought you said something stupid, so I wanted to correct it.
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Ummm... yes..... I don't see precisely where you're going with that. Yes, facts are 'thought up'. So is, y'know, everything that anybody knows? Well, except for fundamentalist religion - no thought goes into that.
See, that is being single minded, when you say no thought has went into religion. Their are in fact christian scientist that study religion and the bible to compare with things on the planet.
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Orion, if you look at my quote, you'll see the word 'fundamentalist' before 'religion'. This is something we call an 'adjective'. It modifies a noun - in this case 'religion'. I did not say no thought goes into religion in general. No, I was sarcastically attacking fundamentalist idiots - like the 'christian scientists' you mentioned who try to shoehorn biblical verses into their cherry-picked 'evidence'.
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Actully, it will not continue in this thread. Just simply that statement shows you are bias and like to try to cause harm to people and tare apart threads, that is what makes you wrong.
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OH NOEZ! I HAVE A POINT OF VIEW! THEREFORE, I AM WRONG!
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Heh, that day will never come for that time is drawing near.
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You just keep expecting the Rapture, there, sonny. Never mind that every time it has ever been predicted to occur in history, the world has continued on roughly as before.
The second coming is nearly 2000 years late by now. Give up - Jesus isn't coming back for you. He never existed in the first place.
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Mithracism... I have aboslutly no comment for that. Christianity started out from Judiasm beliefs and were added on thus having the New Testament.
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Yes. Mithraism. Worship of the god Mithras, who had several significant similarities with the concept of Jesus - the whole 'born from a virgin' thing, birthday on December 25th, son of God, mediator between God and Man, etc.
Basically, Jesus by another name. And he predates Christianity. Whoops.
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Well, at least we know who is right and is wrong in the matter.
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Glad we agree on something. ;)
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That has nothing to do with it. Its my page, I say what I want on Christmas. It is called freedom of speech by the way since you did say we can say w/e we want on the internet, which in reality, you can't. You now what, I was standing up for Christianity and doing what was right that I felt in my heart. And this was had nothing to do with converting at all.
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I didn't actually say that you can say whatever you want on the internet, and it was simple grandstanding - look at me, I'm a big Christian! Don't let the evil homosexual atheist communist leftist liberal pinko pro-lifers kill Christmas!
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I know in my heart I did was right and you can say w/e you want. It doesnt harm me, it simply passes by like nothing happened. From this experienced alone I have learned more of who I am and what I will do for the future to make sure intolerance will try to be different.
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You've learnt nothing. You know what you're feeling, deep down, in your heart? We call that 'indigestion'.
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AS I have said, you have taken my words and twisted them around in such a way to make things look the oposite of what they really are. If you want to go and downgrade religion and such, go do it on your page if you must, but this downgrading is down starting now.
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That's a good idea. I'll take my rational argument against your ridiculous ideas, and put it somewhere where you can't moderate it. The word-twisting is especially fun.
Have a nice read, my hapless victim!
