Ssj4justdale wrote:
Kozuma3 wrote:
NSBR wrote:
Hello Darkness my old friend
I've come to bump you once again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was dreaming
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Kozuma3 wrote:
And the vision that was planted in my brain | |
F0lak wrote:
Ima slap the ol Bump on here. I've been talking to some other developers especially regarding the new Steam features and with the run-around involved in making sure that all of the files are synced properly, this is a headache for everyone involved. I'm bumping this out of sheer frustration with the existing workflow for updating the latest build for Hazordhu. please for the love of god | |
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 Bump | |
Hello. As the title implies, I'll try to make the last case for the implementation of the 'Compile to Exe' feature, at least on my part. This isn't entirely unprovoked, per your message, Lum:
Lummox JR wrote: I didn't mention such a feature. The usual people trying to push for it did. They keep bringing it up but without an implementation path that makes sense. First, let's first mention a few of the topics about this feature done before, to note that the community has been asking for this for a long time: "I really really miss the make exe option", by FIREking, on Dec 29 2012, with 21 replies "Make EXE", by Zelldot, on Mar 9 2015, with 8 replies "Compile to EXE", by Kozuma, on Mar 24 2017, with 43 replies So, WHY do we need it? Despite you beeing aware of all the reasons, I find reinforcing them will help: - No one wants to have to download a game portal to play a single game - No one wants to install files anymore - No one wants to need to message the developer of the engine to get a package and key for every project of his/hers - It's true that people can install byond and then play the game by clicking a link, but the discontinuety from the game's image to BYOND hinders the entire process. You'll only figure that out when you try teaching someone how to connect to your game. It's really bothersome both for you and the potential player. For general context on this feature, among game engines, BYOND seems to negatively stand out on this aspect, since all the popular ones, like UNITY, Unreal, GameMaker Studio 2, Godot, and even our ugly cousin (sorry Veek) Vylocity have it at display. Even so, BYOND seems to be swimming against the flow for many years, but it wasn't always like this. In Version 461, A 'Make EXE' feature was implemented, with the intention, per notes, "to allow distribution of games without requiring the user to download or install BYOND independently." It was later discontinued, without any mention at any release after that. Nonetheless, the reason why it was discontinued was divulged by Tom, here: Tom wrote, on Feb 26 2015: We aren't advertising the standalone because the plan is to dump it in favor of a CEF-based exe that hosts the webclient, when it is stable and as speedy as DS. If that never happens, then we'll return to the old way. But, as Fushimi said, you can always contact us if you want to try it out with a polished game. It's pretty cool but I don't want to keep supporting it. So the reason was because of a substutition in favor of CEF and the webclient. Well... BYOND won't adopt CEF anymore (in favor of WebView2, a project we don't know how long will take), and the webclient has been put on the backburner for a while, with no eta to when it will be put on the table again. Are we stuck without it, till then? Nevertheless, with you, Lum, now as the head (and solo) dev, new reasons were alluded to as to why it isn't available, like issues with fangames, or with AD implementation (which we will visit), but never made absolutely clear. An absolutely clear response would help to squash this and help us move forward. You've mentioned yourself that this was a good idea: Lummox JR wrote, on Apr 11 2017: Just to weigh in here and end speculation about whether or not I'd have an interest in this, I think the concept of an easy .exe that still does the ads is actually a pretty good idea. So, an EXE that does the ads is a pretty good idea. What is hindering it? Without the issue, it's impossible for us to suggest anything. We can only assume... Is an "implementation path" really needed for this one? Isn't it just 'plug and play'? Is the issue fangames? They already aren't published on the site. I can't see how an standalone version of the game would hinder byond in this topic, considering people can still access them as is and people already do their own homecooked version of standalones. Still on the topic of ads, we have also requested for them to be able to be removed for the game before. Many clear implementation ideas were discussed there! ADs don't even work! And when they do, people just have to install ADBlocker on their internet explorer and it's resolved. They'd only have to wait the 30s delay. I doubt there is a significant ammount of revenue coming from client ads. You'd increase your revenue considerably if you'd just sell ad-passes for accounts. If the issues are still fangames, you could have it so that you have no ties with it at all, making the no-ad feature purchasable via account, not tied to any hub. I, and I feel many would agree, don't care about having the HUB page or google linking to our HUB page. If there is a need to remove it from display to have this option, sign me up. I sincerely await a clear response so we, the community, and you can move forward on this subject. We have been asking for it for 11 years now!... You've commented positively on it 6 years ago. Don't you think it's time to take action on it? And to close the post, some of the names of the users who have positively commented on the feature, with links to the comment: Me, Kozuma3, FIREking, the late Kidpaddle45, Murrawip, Fugsnarf, Prf X, Drakemoore, Makeii, Hiro the Dragon King, YURIRAMOS, Atol Soldier, Avidanimefan, Lavenblade, FKI, The peoples republic of china, Massive96, Oondivinezin, Maximus_Alex2003, F0lak, Techgamer, Evi of au, Fake Bishop, Ssj4justdale, Zelldot, D4RK3 54B3R, Airjoe, Pixel Realms, Legobumb, Lost Dragon and many others that have demonstrated support over Discord messages. - my fingers are aching now | |
I'm not sure what part of "They keep bringing it up but without an implementation path that makes sense" was unclear. I haven't yet seen a path forward on that that would be workable, especially in your particular case where you want this for a fangame.
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The "implementation path that makes sense" was unclear.
Just make it available at the compile tab, coming with ads. That doesn't make sense? What issue does it bring to the table with the game being a fangame? Fangames can't have standalones even with ads? I'd appreciate if you were more clear on the issues. Seems like you didn't read the whole message, but oh well. | |
Embedding ads in executables is problematic. There's no revenue stream there, because nobody does worthwhile ad buys for downloadable software on desktop.
Mobile? Yes. Desktop, no. People uninstall adware the second they find it. There's no market for ad supported EXEs. In fact, traditional ads just aren't throwing off revenue like they used to except on very specific places like video streaming sites and porn sites. That's what's unworkable. Discuss. What you need, is specific data on relevant ad campaigns that could be served to a downloadable desktop exe, their CPM, and demonstrations of games of similar quality to what will be released on BYONDexe can throw off enough revenue to be a viable business model. Those are the metrics you need to make a case. All other arguments are pointless without those specific examples of similar business models, and the revenue that they generate. Also, highly relevant: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/monetize/ display-ads-in-your-app  The overwhelming majority of desktop advertising platforms have failed in a very short period of time. Even major players have shuttered their efforts in a matter of a few years. It's extremely difficult to, from an educated position, with supporting evidence, make an argument for the business model that was just proposed. That's the problem. | |
Why even bother with the ads? They don't even work most of the time. If the issue is purely about BYOND's revenue, then perhaps a membership tier that allows access to EXE compiling. I think you'd probably have to change Dream Maker to require a login to do so, however.
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I believe Overwolf has achieved some success with ads on PC. Overwolf is a kind of platform for overlays that display on top of existing games, and the third-party developers get to decide where and when ads are displayed within their own overlay apps. They can even choose ads of specific sizes.
This is briefly described on this page: https://programmatic.overwolf.com/#Experience There's also a video at the top, a FAQ towards the bottom, and some statistics as well. You can read about it in more detail here: https://overwolf.github.io/start/monetize-with-ads/ ads-monetization-basics Here are the various ad and ad security providers they use: https://www.overwolf.com/legal/privacy/ advertising-service-providers Apparently Roblox is planning to introduce a kind of immersive ads system: https://www.marketingdive.com/news/ roblox-immersive-ads-metaverse-Robux-Gen-Alpha/631622/ I think this is notable enough to show that advertising within PC games is not entirely dead. Now I don't expect BYOND to provide any kind of SDK for ads, and obviously, immersive ads are not an option. What might make sense is to have some limited form of customization that allows game developers to decide where and when ads should be displayed. Instead of forcing players to wait for an ad to play, that may or may not be there, why not have the option to move the ad into the game itself? This could take the form of a new DMF interface control, that developers could customize and place within any window they choose. Dream Seeker should wait for a limited time for the ad to display properly, and if this fails to happen, due to either the absence of the ad control, or a developer trying to be clever, Dream Seeker will then forcibly display the ad in a popup window that cannot be closed without closing Dream Seeker entirely. Perhaps even the default position of the fallback popup window could be customized in the form of a /client var. By default, the new ad control should be destroyed after displaying the ad, and a command could be run using a new skin parameter, such as "on-ad-complete". Later, this advertising system could be expanded upon, to give the developers of carefully reviewed, original games, the option to enable more persistent ads, in which they could receive a cut of the revenue. In this way, all BYOND games, whether standalone or not, would be more streamlined and accessible for players, without negatively impacting BYOND's ad revenue, and it could even be expanded in the future. However, at the very least, WebView2 would be a prerequisite, before any of this could even be considered. The webclient is a separate project, and it shouldn't be required for a Windows standalone game. The webclient still has a lot of potential though, especially on mobile devices. | |
Why are we discussing ads in the exe compiler like 99% of people nowadays don't run an ad-blocker of some kind? I think discussing adding an obviously easily bypass-able, and therefore moot, "feature" is a pointless endeavor.
There needs to be an alternative method for monetization - probably more along the lines of what Oondivinezin mentioned where it can be locked behind BYOND membership on Dream Maker. Something more along those lines seems much easier to accomplish, and much more feasible to do considering today's world. If the powers that be are absolutely gung-ho, never dropping the idea, can't live without it - about ad revenue that can't be all that great nowadays, then fine. Let's look at other platforms and how they go about it. - Unity: afaik, they don't push ads onto any game forcibly. They make their money off their asset store if I'm not mistaken. I remember BYOND had something similar back in the day, but that idea sort of fell off and got phased out. Not sure why as it happened a long long time ago. - Unreal Engine: Similar to Unity if I'm not mistaken. No forced ads anywhere; asset store exists. - Mobile Games: TONS of forced ads in just about every freeware version of any app, and only because no ad-blocker exists or works on the mobile platform (at least none that I'm aware of; I'm sure someone somewhere out there has made one for themselves). - Game Maker: no forced ads anywhere, asset store exists, and their software suite is completely free except when you want to export your game to certain platforms. At that point, you do have to pay for that specific feature. - Vylocity: the bastard cousin of BYOND. I'm sure someone could weigh in here about it since I've never gotten intimate with it. I saw the Export/Export All options in the File menu but it was grayed out for me last I saw, so if that lights up at some point and does what I think it does, then cool beans. All in all, it seems like having an asset store is the primary method of monetization for these game development platforms so the engine devs can pay themselves. Personally, I think doing what Game Maker does and locking the specific exe feature behind a paywall (whether with BYOND membership or a separate payment that unlocks the feature for life, whatever) is the most feasible route to go. I'm not sure why BYOND phased out the members-only assets side of the site, but I remember it being one of the only platforms to do it back in the day. Maybe back then it wasn't really a widely accepted thing until Unity/Unreal made it normalized. We shouldn't be discussing adding ads anywhere into the BYOND software anymore these days. That's about all I really wanted to talk about here. | |
I think there seems to be a misunderstanding. I wasn't supporting ads. Lummox was the one that said that a standalone version that came with the ads was a pretty good idea. Then why not do just that?
Is it bad revenue? No one uses it anymore? I agree. Again, Lummox was the one who suggested it. You don't need to embed them on the exe either. You could just leave it as it is (as far as I know), when the player uses the exe standalone a browser window popups like the current one to a byond website that redirects it to or has an ad. If its bad revenue I don't know why BYOND is still using them at all (and it doesn't even work). For me, the correct approach would be to remove the ads entirely and go for a paid membership that allowed users to compile to exe, like some of the users have already mentioned. Just do it how GameMaker does it. It offers plans so the users can export the game into an exe, paid monthly or yearly:  Granted it has other tiers, byond could increase the price, since it would be just one. Then, just have the option available when the user logs on the client. Then when he opens dreammaker, it's there. An account based system would have no problems with fangames. As no other platform or engine has. If the sharing of accounts is an issue, maybe lock it behind CID or IP Regions, having to authorize region / cid changes via account/e-mail or maybe the account could store the .dme file names and skin titles (encrypted) so that users could only compile 3 projects per month or something of the sort. Again, that is the least of the problems, just shooting out here. Also, Lummox has all of the data. He knows the mean profit related to ads. Just charge that for the membership. Heck, charge double that. I doubt it would go over 20 bucks. I'm also in favor of people being able to charge for libs and resources. Not that it's needed for the exe feature. Just another revenue isle for BYOND. If this isn't a clear path that makes sense, there won't ever be one, this thread can be closed and the topic never be brought up again. What it seems like is just that he doesn't want to do it but instead of saying that he has us running around on loops. That shows when he didn't read my post and/or just limited himself on repeating what was said before that wasn't clear at all. Honestly, if Lummox can't look at all this and make a well-informed decision on how to go about implementing exporting into Dream Maker, then he clearly just doesn't even want to make money and/or care about the feature in general. At that point, I'd probably just start openly telling people to use Game Maker over Dream Maker. | |
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Here, an edited version of GameMaker's plans as a suggestion:
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Some of us are not showing Lummox JR, BYOND's sole developer, the respect he deserves. This is the first time that this discussion has actually gone anywhere, so try to have some patience. Screaming the same thing over and over while jumping up and down isn't going to get you anywhere.
It isn't fair to compare BYOND to the biggest, most popular engines in the video game industry. BYOND has more in common with Xbox, PlayStation, or Nintendo, than it does Unreal Engine, Unity, or GameMaker. Game developers do not make up the majority of BYOND's userbase. Players do. That's why it makes sense to target the players for revenue, not the developers, even if engine development happens to be the main focus. That's why ads still make sense. BYOND's engine is nowhere near the point where developers would be willing to buy it, instead of the more popular alternatives. Selling the standalone feature doesn't make sense either, as workarounds are trivial, and important communities, like SS13, would just leave in response. An open-source alternative is already starting to emerge, that will enable games written in DM, to leave the BYOND engine, and never return. Like it or not, ads are the future of BYOND, and the sooner they are embraced, the better. Microsoft and Sony understand the value of ads: https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradadgate/2022/05/05/ microsoft-and-sony-are-looking-at-ads-on-free-to-play-video- game/ Overwolf understands the value of ads: https://programmatic.overwolf.com Roblox understands the value of ads: https://www.marketingdive.com/news/ roblox-immersive-ads-metaverse-Robux-Gen-Alpha/631622/ Cocos understands the value of ads: https://www.cocos.com/en/post/ cocos-partners-with-google-to-help-web-enabled-games-cash-in We all know that Google, Facebook, and Twitch understand the value of ads. Most gamers out there are probably not using a custom DNS filter, Pi-hole, or custom hosts file to block ads system-wide, but if anyone has some statistics to show otherwise, then by all means, provide them. I still stand by what I said in my previous post: http://www.byond.com/forum/post/ 2228000?page=3#comment26392099 | |
I’m not going to lie and say I read all of the latest responses, but as far as ads and a lack of engine revenue go, it’s simple. The developers pay for a “developer” account, which allows them to build their game to exe in dream maker with the pager open to their account. You could even have it be based on some sort of per-game basis, and throw in dark mode in dream maker just to sweeten the deal.
Alternatively, you could have developers Pay for the current system that unlocks the distribution feature, and simply allow them to compile to exe if their valid key is #define’d in their code somewhere. Ultimately, the argument of a lack of income for Lummox on account of the feature is moot, seeing as the current system is clunky, requires extra effort on his part, and doesn’t cost anything extra, a simpler system would be better than what we have now. | |
Multiverse7 wrote:
Some of us are not showing Lummox JR, BYOND's sole developer, the respect he deserves. This is the first time that this discussion has actually gone anywhere, so try to have some patience. Screaming the same thing over and over while jumping up and down isn't going to get you anywhere. Absolutely agree that patience is key here. I'm not too aware of what's all been discussed up until now about the exe compiler, but going into detail about specific implementations seems to be what Lummox is waiting for. Although I will point out the fact that 11 years is quite a long time for even a solo dev to come up with something on his own in this topic and at least try it out other than only handing it out to specific developers. I don't think in this current conversation is us screaming the same things over and over again. We've been trying to get more information out of Lummox to see what he specifically is looking for from us in terms of ideas. Does he want code snippets he can copy/paste into the engine or just ideas? Does he want us to clear a path for him in some way? More direction on a vision from him would help give us an idea on what he's looking for. And in turn, we can give him feedback outside of just, "compile2exe when?!" It isn't fair to compare BYOND to the biggest, most popular engines in the video game industry. BYOND has more in common with Xbox, PlayStation, or Nintendo, than it does Unreal Engine, Unity, or GameMaker. Game developers do not make up the majority of BYOND's userbase. Players do. That's why it makes sense to target the players for revenue, not the developers, even if engine development happens to be the main focus. That's why ads still make sense. BYOND's engine is nowhere near the point where developers would be willing to buy it, instead of the more popular alternatives. Selling the standalone feature doesn't make sense either, as workarounds are trivial, and important communities, like SS13, would just leave in response. An open-source alternative is already starting to emerge, that will enable games written in DM, to leave the BYOND engine, and never return. Like it or not, ads are the future of BYOND, and the sooner they are embraced, the better. How isn't it fair to compare BYOND, a game development suite, to the biggest and most popular game development suites out there? What else are we supposed to compare it to? Ultimately, BYOND is "build your own net dream" not "play other peoples' net dreams" is it not? Which means the focus is and always has been, the developers. It's designed to make it easy to pump out a project for others to play, yet we're complaining that the current scope is limited to just BYOND and no where else. I think that's a fair assessment when just about every other game dev suite out there has multiple platforms supported, paid or free. Microsoft and Sony understand the value of ads: Overwolf isn't a game dev suite, so that isn't a like-for-like comparison by any means. I've never even heard of Cocos, so I'll admit I can't even comment on that one. I've never touched Roblox and so I don't know what their ads are like. As for Microsoft and Sony - I don't think I've ever seen them do ads on any of their games. I've played a few games from the Microsoft Store and I have a PS4 that I will sometimes play. Not a single ad on the games thus far. The ads are typically on their launchers only, which BYOND could very easily do actually - putting ads within the BYOND pager. And then I'm not sure why you're throwing Facebook, Google, and Twitch into the mix since those are social media platforms and not game dev suites. I understand you're pointing out that they very much value ad-revenue, but they also have the means to force ads onto their viewers/users to more or less guarantee generating some kind of ad-revenue. But we're talking about makgam here; not makvid. Most gamers out there are probably not using a custom DNS filter, Pi-hole, or custom hosts file to block ads system-wide, but if anyone has some statistics to show otherwise, then by all means, provide them. We're talking about a basic ad-blocker everyone installs on their main browser that literally stops all BYOND ads - even in the Dream Seeker launcher. That's part of the main focus going on in this discussion: a possible alternative to something so easily bypass-able. I'm sure Lummox is all-ears on suggestions in this particular department, and a few of us have already brought up alternatives that accomplish both the compile2exe feature AND generate more revenue for him. I still stand by what I said in my previous post: To build upon your suggestion there, I'd like to point out that within the mobile platform, games and other apps have their ads on the outskirts of the main viewport of their game/app. And it's always there and cycling through whatever ads the ad-controller spits out. Is this the sort of thing you're getting at in your post? I think it's definitely a possible direction Lummox could take the ad-revenue thing. | |
Legobumb wrote:
Multiverse7 wrote: This is literally the title of the byond.com home page: "BYOND - Make & Play Online Multiplayer Games" Also on the very same page: "BYOND is the premier community for making and playing online multiplayer games. As a player, enjoy hundreds of games created by our community, by people just like you. As a developer, make your own indie sensation with an easy-to-learn language, built-in online support, tools for developers, and plenty of articles and tutorials. BYOND is an engine at its nucleus, which is surrounded by BYOND the platform. It has always been a combination of engine and platform, hence the "Make & Play". The platform provides some revenue that helps the engine grow. Legobumb wrote: Multiverse7 wrote: If it really is that simple, then a browser upgrade is desperately needed. I don't believe WebView2 supports any kind of addons or extensions, so if you can get an ad blocker running on there, it's probably not something that most would ever figure out how to do, and it would certainly be more difficult to block ads than it is currently. It would also be more secure. Legobumb wrote: Multiverse7 wrote: That's pretty much what I was suggesting, but with a little more control over when and where an ad is shown. For example, it might only appear on the outer border of a main menu screen, or maybe when a specific pane or GUI is displayed. If it was persistent like that, then the ads should at least have some down time, so that it isn't too intrusive. With ads, there has to be a fine balance between profitable and tolerable, that way everyone wins. Of course, you should also have the option to pay for your game to be ad-free for all players. | |
Multiverse7 wrote:
Some of us are not showing Lummox JR, BYOND's sole developer, the respect he deserves. This is the first time that this discussion has actually gone anywhere, so try to have some patience. Screaming the same thing over and over while jumping up and down isn't going to get you anywhere. This discussion hasn't actually gone anywhere yet. Lummox has just reused the same post he made in 2017. 6 years ago. It can only move forward when he actually engages with the topic. Asking us to have some patience is like pouring gasoline to a fire. The feature has been asked for 11 years. For how much more should we wait without any clear indication? 1 more year? 2? Will BYOND be up then? Some have literally graduated, had kids and some literally have died whilst waiting for the feature. It isn't fair to compare BYOND to the biggest, most popular engines in the video game industry. BYOND has more in common with Xbox, PlayStation, or Nintendo, than it does Unreal Engine, Unity, or GameMaker. Besides the points Legobumb already made, BYOND was founded in 1996. Unreal Engine in 1998, GameMaker in 1999, Unity in 2005. We can compare it. It didn't make as much sucess as those because, either or, it wasn't their goal, their market attempts failed, they made bad design choises and they failed to keep up with demand. It was capable of being up there. What about Vylocity? You can compile to exe there. Selling the standalone feature doesn't make sense either, as workarounds are trivial, and important communities, like SS13, would just leave in response. An open-source alternative is already starting to emerge, that will enable games written in DM, to leave the BYOND engine, and never return. Making your own standalone launcher and having no ads on your game can be done outside of byond-supported methods. But it's not officially supported. That's what we're asking for here. If it's trivial, and communities would leave, they would have already done so. SS13's devs are more than capable of doing so as is. And how would they "leave" if they would need to be paying BYOND either way? Also, if it's something trivial, it should be available by default. BYOND's engine is nowhere near the point where developers would be willing to buy it, instead of the more popular alternatives. That doesn't make any sense. If the devs are spending years of their time on the engine, what is paying 20 bucks a month? Can't you see the sheer support of the community on having this available on this thread alone? Like it or not, ads are the future of BYOND, and the sooner they are embraced, the better. Something that isn't working as is is the future? If it pays that much, what is the problem of charging that same ammount to game developers? There would be no revenue lost here. And the plus side? Players wouldn't have to look at annoying ads! And if it's the future, but not the present, why not have it avaiable till this future of yours arrive? It sure as hell isn't here yet (as ads don't even work). You're also forgetting that the longer games are suffocated by the platform without being able to get fresh air (read players) outside of it, the more the platform gets close to it's death. This is literally the title of the byond.com home page: You're comparing the homepage title with the name itself that the acronym stands for. Also, saying this isn't a garage project for developers (both for the game devs and for lum) is beeing too out of reality. | |
Left its seeds while I was dreaming