I'm sorry that I threw out an ambiguous "BYOND Staff" comment about dealing with the pagers Tom, I know that you were always straight-forward about that, which is actually why I stopped complaining about losing the Pager as a non-member.
http://developer.byond.com/forum/ index.cgi?action=message_read&id=377035&forum=7&view=0
Things like that are what I had a huge problem with during those times. Mostly I wished at the time that the Guru's could have been a bit better informed and not mislead the community.
But this is all way off topic and old old news, as well as a non-issue so I'll shut up :P
Lummox -
Whoa, long post! I've read through it though, and here are my thoughts: I may not have clearly communicated the statement "time isn't the issue". What I meant is that one of the real problems isn't the lack of time that the staff has (which is totally understandable), but the decisions that they make with the time that they do have. BYOND enables trolls and lazy developers, and that didn't happen due to a lack of time. Removing the rips has nothing to due with elitism (another term that I must not have communicated correctly). Coming down hard on BYONDers who modify stolen code to create a game and then abuse their player base just seems like common sense to me. If all the rips are gone, then what? Developers might actually take the time to learn to code instead of modifying someone else's. Or maybe they'll just leave... and good riddance. BYOND is only going to attract quality users if we do everything that we can to support them. Merely ensuring that their games don't get lost in a see of rips in the unpublished section would be a huge help. I think that it's really just a problem with the philosophy of how things are run around here. The users can abuse the system in a million different ways-- because they are free to do so. | |
Jaredoggy wrote:
http://developer.byond.com/forum/ index.cgi?action=message_read&id=377035&forum=7&view=0 Things like that are what I had a huge problem with during those times. i think that was a mis-type on the part of Xooxer, because i know in other conversations in the old Chatters with Xooxer - we talked about $400-$500 per month, not $5,000. it is also possible he meant yearly at the time, and not monthly. | |
the issue on rips is a bit moot. yes, they are a thorn in the side. yes, they are illegal in some form or fashion. yes, there are too many of them.
but as gun manufactuers and auto-makers are not responsible, nor technically and financially capable, in policing the use of their respective products, neither can BYOND be expected to do the same. it's just not very tenable. people (unfortunately in many cases) have the right to do stupid things with the tools they are given. (i'm of the opinion that removing the warning labels off of most products will solve many of the stupidity problems, but that's a rant for another time). i do agree that instead of focusing on the rips and letting them get more limelight than they deserve, maybe a re-vamp of the game hub is needed in order to show those games that are truly original, fun, and of good quality. looking at http://games.byond.com/ i see that fangames appear at the bottom, so i'm not sure what more can be done to promote the other genres better, at this point. people can make all the rips they want - we just don't need to see them on the hub - or atleast up-front and in-your-face. you should still be able to search through the hub to find them if you really wanted to torture yourself. now then, how to go about it properly, and to remain fair to the minority fangames that are fun and of decent quality, is a whole other discussion. | |
The term "rip" is thrown around a lot. In this case, it is referring to stolen code rather than trademark infringement. The question is whether or not some part of BYOND should be responsible for settling such disputes.
As for fangames, the channels on the main page are sorted randomly. That does not appear to be where many people look though. Games Live is the place to go when someone wants to play a persistent game or avoid gathering their own group of people. By default, Games Live is not divided into many categories. You'll find about a page of unsorted, published games and then a link to many pages of unsorted, unpublished games. The more games listed in a section, the less likely a single game is to stand out. Fangames currently take up the bulk of the listing. | |
I think BYOND should have the DBZ Fangame section again. That actually helped clean the pages. Then again, maybe it would need a Naruto section too.
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This was most likely suggested before, so what was the response about only letting published games get ranked?
The way I see it, if a bunch of people are enjoying an unpublished game THAT much then it should be incentive for the developer to submit it for review. If it's rejected due to not being complete enough, that shouldn't affect the popularity of the game, right? The game could be expanded a bit more and make another application. People would still be allowed to rank unpublished games; votes would only be scaled against highest ranked published game instead. | |
I find the 'popularity contest' analysis of ranking systems to be rather...misplaced.
It stands to reason that there are many groups that you can place people within, which relatively accurately describes their broad likes and dislikes within games. Now, the very definition of succes implies perceived subjective goals; Because of this, no single value of success can ever be used across multiple people unless their goals are common. However, because of that very fact, it becomes handy to define a *common* definition of success (Which is really a common definition of goals) that, by and large, the world functions under today when it comes to products. Humanity does this all the time, not purely pertaining to games or products. In the case of games, its widely accepted that these such common goals happen to be user experience and user retention. Under that definition of goals, you can reach a semi-common definition of success that reads something like this: A games success depends on the amount of users who enjoy(ed) playing the game. A lot of this is supported by evidence thats slightly too off-topic to be talking about here (Studies on game replay-value increasing sales and game success, etc). Statistically speaking... If I visit twenty games, ten of which are ranked top fifty in a community and ten of which aren't ranked at all; There is a larger chance I will happen upon a game which I will like, if my personality goes in line with the voters'. And theres the problem with ranking systems, right there. A lot of systems get around that by complimenting rankings with user reviews (Either specifying that a game *must* have several user reviews to even be ranked, or requiring votes to carry with them a review). I'm not sure how feasible that is, in this case, however. | |
You have no idea how long it's taken me to read this post's comments. -_- Basically anything I would've said has been said in some manner, but I would just like to mention that I could go for a nice, long nap about now.
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Ah, you may somewhat disregard my previous comment, as I have possibly found something that I would like to say. :)
Policing games based on quality would not be good for the community. Lower-quality games are often the medium for legitimate* users to reach BYOND. In 2002, I found BYOND, playing DragonBall Zeta---one of the most disliked BYOND games in its history---on my first day here. However, before my limited access time to the Net had ended, I also managed to make note that BYOND was also a developer's platform, and I managed to download 2 demos before having to sign off. I spent the rest of my offline night in reading through those two demos several times, and also reading through Dream Maker's built-in Reference (the best thing that could have ever been implemented into BYOND). As I did so, I was of course tempted into countless programming experiments. Through BYOND, I basically started programming, and would later go on to learn an array of other languages. The point I am trying to make, I suppose, would be that it is the user's individual decisions on how they will develop as a member** of the BYOND community that determine the end-result, and they are not to be stereotyped in such forms as "player of Naruto Rip #20446." Regardless of how they initiate in BYOND, any user has the potential to grow with it. By cutting off the medium through which they connect to BYOND in the first place, the user has less of a chance of being nurtured under BYOND. So, even though that this "N-Bottles" is not very well liked in the BYOND Community (perhaps a less-original form of DB Zeta in 2002), and even though it is a rip (I think) of another Naruto game, it is undeniable that it has a large user-base, and there is a fair chance that any number of these users can grow to become a legitimate* BYOND community member**. If this game were removed for being a rip (again, I -think- it is a rip), then the effects are not only on its developer in pressuring him or her into learning how to develop a game properly, but the many users who play this game as their first experience with BYOND will have suddenly become cut-off. * I use the term "legitimate" lightly; by this I perhaps mean something more to the effect of a more community-respected user, as opposed to any actual meanings of the word. ** By "member," I do not refer to BYOND Members, but rather to a registered user of the BYOND key system who participates in some way in the community. | |
The "fan games bring users in" argument doesn't hold water in my opinion.
I'm sure that there are illegal immigrants in this country who will one day contribute to society in a big way. Does that mean that we should just throw open the gates to our borders and allow anyone in, hoping that a few of them might someday contribute? If we're worried about attracting new users, then fan games are the worst way to do it. Based upon your argument, why not allow porn games on the hub? Those will attract HORDES of users. | |
If we're worried about attracting new users, then fan games are the worst way to do it. FanGames are a perfectly fine way to bring users in. Dragon Warrior Online brought in a lot of 'good' users. It's crappy FanGames that are the problem here. What Naruto Fan would want to play Birth of the Legendary Shinobi? | |
DarkView wrote:
What Naruto Fan would want to play Birth of the Legendary Shinobi? I'm guessing that that is the "N-Bottles" that has been spoken of. While I like the Naruto manga, and I don't play that, apparently there are plenty of people that do play it. :S Silkydude wrote: why not allow porn games on the hub? Those will attract HORDES of users. As far as I know, porn violates the BYOND ToS and whatnot. I haven't checked, but fan-games are allowed and I -think- that the ToS doesn't mention the use of code obtained in a less-than-honorable way to produce a game. Granted, that may well be counted as copyright infringement but, y'know, whatever those in power decide when handling that garbage is what goes. Anyhow, I sure wouldn't mind it if the Naruto rip was removed and replaced with a perfectly great fan-game alternative for all of its users to switch to. However, in the absence of such an alternative, I'd think it better to give them something to suffice their wants for now, even if said something is crap (perhaps this also reflects on another one of your points: perhaps the BYOND staff feel it better to give us some features to whet our appetites before 4.0 is finished, even if those features are incomplete). | |
Hey everybody. Let's play Spin the Nbotls!
http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/3115/spinthenbotlshf1.gif | |
I use to be a Naruto fan game player myself, and as of now, I've totally stopped playing after 1 game.
I'm not ashamed of it, Naruto Online by NewBreedofNerd brought me into BYOND. But as of lately, I've lost interest in them due to the HUGE population of ripped Naruto(As well as DBZ) games. I recently convinced a friend of mine to try BYOND and he told me, "I don't like it, I played like 5 games and they were all similiar." Someone gone because of "rips." The only thing I could think up of most is someone taking the role of responsibility of watching over fan games. Or at least having the fan games section divided, that I've recently read in another post. Such as: Anime, Video Games, etc. | |
It's only a matter of time till someone combines DBZ and Naruto into one huge n00b orgy of doom. :3
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I don't see any easy solutions to this, especially in the short term, but I personally hope the completed guild system will facilitate a more organized and meaningful method for players to find quality games. I also think that this type of compartmentalization will inspire new developers to define and fill their own niche within the guilds over time.
I absolutely abhor the ranking system but not for the same reason that everyone else does. No, the reason I dislike it is because of the hostility it generates. I'm as guilty of having given in to this as anyone. For example, FF:THG was ahead of FFO in the rankings for quite some time and, even though the two games have absolutely nothing in common (except a portion of their names), I looked upon the former as a rival and with contempt at having somehow surpassed my work. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way (concerning other games), and I think the rankings are a pissing contest BYOND can and should do without (especially in the present form). Concerning elitism, we have created a very inhospitable environment for the novice programmer. I don't really need to mention rips; they've been discussed ad nauseam. Promoting quality games should definitely be a priority, not only as something for people to play, but as something for new developers to aspire to. And again, I disagree with people here, but I say instead of suppressing not-quite-top-notch games, we should encourage developers to improve them and get them up to par, not writing them off as completely useless as many tend to do. | |
Hiead wrote:
As far as I know, porn violates the BYOND ToS and whatnot. I haven't checked, but fan-games are allowed and I -think- that the ToS doesn't mention the use of code obtained in a less-than-honorable way to produce a game. You missed the meaning of what I said. I was pointing out that a ridiculous scenario such as using porn to attract new users is the logical and moral equivalent of using ripped fan games to attract new users. Both are equally stupid. | |
Lummox JR wrote:
It's often been easier to release something than wait forever for a completed feature that isn't ready. After all, the attitude of wait-till-it's-perfect is basically what put BYOND 4.0 in such a stall in the first place. This sounds familiar. | |
Making money from your work is completely moral. Anyone who tells you that it isn't is a freeloader.