it's called project management folks! try it once in a while.

ID:20957
 
Oct 15 2006, 11:12 am (Edited on Oct 15 2006, 11:18 am)
an annoying forum post has caused me to re-introduce basic game-production concepts to a new generation of whiners.

read. memorize. grok. read again.

---
King of Slimes recently babbled:
So your asking other people to make your game?
Coder = The TRUE creator.

BUZZ! wrong answer! but thanks for playing!

you have obviously not read my rant on this subject in older forum posts, so just for you (since your key is pretty new), i'm going to repost something you and everyone else should read carefully:

aside from the fact that, yes, there are some people who expect others to do all the work to make a game for them to play- it seems no-one here recalls the 'ideas person' as a valid job position.

thanks for the warm, helpful, and completely negative environment you kids have provided.

it's ironic to note that most of the people who post such crap, like King did above, have not even finished their own games yet.

don't you understand that 'so what are YOU gonna do' posts are just pointless and tend to start flames?

i'm seeing posts like this almost *daily*, and frankily it's getting sickening to see that you have nothing better to do than rag on other people. it's none of your business what they will be doing- ever hear of 'management'? it's sole job is to gather people and resources together to create something. that in itself can be very time-consuming and stressful- something that most programmers never deal with.

project managers just need to have the skills to make decisions based around the goal of the project ('yes, we will use blue hair for gogeta', 'no, kami should not be shirtless'), and mediate issues between the people they work with and the resources available.

i've partnered freelance for several years with a guy who knows nothing about programming *but* he does know what he wants (or what the client wants), and knows how to define it so that we as programmers can make it a reality. he runs a very successful ageny with several employees, all treated as a team. How was the author of this post any different?

this has been said before, but it's worth pointing out again:

developing the ideas and concepts for a game are just as important, and in some cases even more so, than the development of the game itself. without those ideas, without a person, or persons, to lead and direct the team, without a perspective *outside* the programming environment, you don't have a focus or goal to complete a project to the satisfaction of all concerned- and that includes your potential player-base!

programmers and icon makers are often the *worst* people to design a game from start to finish. who cares if they can code 100 lines a day, or draw beautiul icons and backgrounds? if they don't have ideas and concepts, if they don't have someone who keeps the goal or focus of the game going, to mediate between the contributors, to provide feedback and express the desire for this feature or that feature, the 'team' is more often than not doomed to failure.

this is called project management. every commercially successful game out there started with a group of idea people. with the help of designers, programmers, and play-testers, the people with the ideas are able to mold a game into something they feel portrays their vision. they are no-less important.

while i do design and develop my own projects, some of the best work i have been involved in has come from the ideas that someone not technically-minded provided me. they helped to set the wheels of development in motion by saying 'this is what i would like to see happen, and i think other people would like it too', and asking questions like 'can we do this or that?' or 'is this possible?'.

please folks- get your heads out of your butts and understand that people with ideas, yet no other measureable skills, can be just as important to the success of a game as any other responsibility in a game's development.

if programmers and icon-makers are so gods-be great, we'd have far more great games on BYOND, instead of people bickering about 'what are you gonna do' posts, which only waste space- or worse, require myself and other forum mods to spend extra time weeding out this kind of pointless roughage.

now then: continued whining about a person's role in a future game will likely get whacked for wasting forum space. if ya gotta complain like that, communicate directly with the poster, or via the pager, or via another forum. not here.

save us the trouble, please! why not listen to the ideas first. you may learn something, or discover that it is interesting enough to join in. *or* at-least work with the person long enough to see if he has what it takes to oversee a project like this.

simply put- stop with the negativity and either help or move on, or digi starts handing out forum bans like holiday candy.
Oct 15 2006, 11:32 am
:) You're deadly.
Oct 15 2006, 11:34 am
Digi speaks wisdom.
Oct 15 2006, 11:35 am
Wow, thats alot of good reading. Anyway while I agree with you on most part, since in actual game development the producer acts as a manager, there are a few other factors to it. Who your working with, are they being paid to do it, are you being nice to the staff, etc.

For example, before I started coding, I hired a coder for a game I was working on. He did nothing I asked him to do and made the game completely his. While the ideas and concepts were still mine, they were not in the game at all. I am thankful for this though. Because if not for this incident, I wouldnt have took it upon myself to learn the BYOND language.

Anyway, my point being that management is only when you have total control over a project. Since most projects are assembled without pay, the coder seems to take priority over the entire thing. I like your approach better but it strays from the truth of things. Managing a non-paid staff doesnt quite give power to control them. But as I said, the factors apply.
Oct 15 2006, 11:40 am
I believe that that poster was meaning that the programmers are usually the designers of the game, at least here in BYOND world. Very few teams on BYOND, forwhatever reason, have been successful and thus there's usually only a programmer making a game.

But as you stated, programmers usually aren't meant to create everything in a game, plot, graphics, etc. They just cannot keep up with themselves enough, or aren't that creative enough to manage it.

I myself have never formed a successful team of programmers, iconers, and the lot. I'm usually the only person working on my game. I'm simply lucky to think creatively enough to where my programming and ideas cover for the lack of decent graphics. And when I need ideas, I simply ask the players in my game for their viewpoints to make the game better, and those usually do the trick covering for the decision maker, though I would rather have one ons taff at all times.

Simply put, I love the way you stated everything, but those usually only apply to the real world gaming companies, here on BYOND people don't have the attention span to put effort to be on a team and they usually fail to create anything superb as a result. We just gets millions and millions of Naruto game source rips instead of maybe an entirely new Naruto game coded from scratch, or better yet a different game altogether.

But now that you've put everything in perspective for us again, I may try and form a team yet again for my new project, though like I said, people here on BYOND's attention span's suck.
Oct 15 2006, 11:49 am
FinalFantasyFreak wrote:
I believe that that poster was meaning that the programmers are usually the designers of the game...

and they can be, but my point was that posts like that one make no sense when the original poster wants to collect people and/or resources to build their own 'net dream'.

if you have the skills and personality to get a team to work together to fullfill your 'dream', you will be far more successful than most of the current kids trolling the boards.

my other point was that i (and other mods) are quite sick of the 'what are you gonna do' whining, especially when the whiners themselves can't either a) finish a game themselves (and i mean a really good one, not some re-make of a rip), or b) couldn't program their way out of a wet paper bag.
Oct 15 2006, 11:55 am
Lol, yeah, I'd be sick of looking at those posts too. You don't know anything until you can make a very successful game and basically finish it (basically because rarely is any BYOND game ever finished, always bugs you will find, or no general plot but nothing can be added in the decision makers opinion, etc). I tend to stay away from the boards myself only because while I have one "finished" game under my built(I'm calling it finished now because my computer crashed with a more new version on it and I don't really feel like remnaking everything right now) I know that there are other more experienced programmers here.
Oct 15 2006, 11:56 am
If we don't contain this...we won't have anymore fools left!!! Actually, hm. You might be on to something :D
Oct 15 2006, 12:45 pm
Seconded. You've got my support in whacking those posts.
Oct 15 2006, 2:41 pm
Until there's a quantitative measurement scale for ideas I doubt much will change.

People (I imagine as I’ve never sought out a group to develop with) base their choices on examples of each other’s work, here’s an example of what I can draw, here’s an example of how I program, etc. The only way to express prowess with ‘ideas’ or ‘project management’ is with a portfolio or with recognition of your past success, a reputation of sorts – it’d be a different story if say, Lummox JR tried to get a group together for game development, not only would people understand his long history of high quality productions requires a high level of ability to apply but they also understand that he probably has the abilities to manage a group and get a game done. This won’t happen for brand new Byonders, am I supposed to invest time and effort with the only aim being to foster a better community for think-men? In a perfect world I probably should but with things as they are it’s better to just stick with people you know and not risk splitting up the glory-pie even further for a person who at best has a nebulous role in creation of hobbyist games and at worst would be dead weight. Let’s not forget that programming experience is helpful as it gives the manager some idea what he can do with Byond and what is asking too much.

One of my first experiences with BYOND was as part of a group with a project leader who had little to no programming experience, this game grew into what is now known as ‘Final Fantasy – The Hunting Grounds’ and was a great way to learn the language and get a game finished. Project Managers act as a central point to stitch things together and manage everyone and that is damn difficult, it requires someone with a lot of dedication and problem solving, something, no doubt most people hoping to be one don’t have.
Oct 15 2006, 8:07 pm
Thorg wrote:
This won’t happen for brand new Byonders, am I supposed to invest time and effort with the only aim being to foster a better community for think-men?


this is why i wrote, 'why not listen to the ideas first. you may learn something, or discover that it is interesting enough to join in. *or* at-least work with the person long enough to see if he has what it takes to oversee a project like this.' -- you never know about that person until you try and listen to him. if the kid is talking out the side of his butt, then you move on. if he appears to have his head on straight and could do the job, then why not help, if you can?
Oct 15 2006, 8:14 pm
I admit that we should not be so quick to just call them dead weight but it'd be a lot better if they took the time to construct a better first post in classified ads. Most are just one line requests for other people.
Oct 15 2006, 10:51 pm
Thorg wrote:
Most are just one line requests for other people.

i agree. those who want to lead a team for a game really should lay down some info (perhaps not all of it) in order to attract people for the team.

Oct 15 2006, 11:46 pm
If it means anything I think that rant was beautiful. :)
Oct 16 2006, 6:01 am
The problem with many, is that they're often close-minded. I'm not trying to put down close-minded people, but often results in reduced efficiency. Yes, some ideas do need to be kept secret, along with some ideas having flaws. However, I believe we should remain open to each other's ideas.

One person I formerly worked for, I think rejected some of my ideas. Pretty much resulted in my leave from his project. Also, not all programmers lack ideas, there are those who can handle both or multiple fields. It is good, however, to specialize, to result in increased productivity. I don't blame some for not giving out ideas, as some project leaders don't even attempt to give credit. That is one of the largest problem swith majority of games in BYOND and probably real-life (talking about those rips), they don't give any credit. Happened with Dragonball Zeta and Elysium, happened with Naruto games. Thats all I have to say referring to this post at this moment.
Oct 16 2006, 2:41 pm
Like others have mentioned, I think BYOND has a very different environment from professional programming...

I agree that idea-men are a very important aspect of almost any industry (knowing what should/could be done doesn't often go hand-in-hand with the ability to do it), I just don't think the model works within the BYOND "economy"...

And I'm not even really speaking of pay here (though that is an important motivational factor that is lacking in BYOND) The problem is that the people within the community with the talents are often people who also have their own ideas... There is a very short supply of people who can program/draw/whatever, yet have nothing of their own to work on (that, or they're all very quiet)

It's part of the reason we're all here in the first place... BYOND isn't the type of place where you just join up because you have resources/specialized talents to share (as an artist in the real world is willing to apply for jobs strictly as an artist for some company), BYOND is the sort of place that draws people who have a desire to create something of their own (reflected by the acronym) Therefore, eve the people who don't currently have any ideas still have a drive to find their own, not to work on someone else's...

So you might have lots of idea-men coming with their ideas, but finding that no one wants to work with them simply because they've all got their own stuff going on (or they want to have their own stuff, and are waiting for inspiration to strike, raher than get bogged down working for others)...

For instance, I'd LOVE to answer more ads in classifieds looking for icon work... But I've already got my own projects taking my time (and even then I don't give them enough attention)...

So while I definitely agree with what you've written, I honestly don't think it applies to BYOND and the types of people we have here...
Oct 17 2006, 12:39 am (Edited on Mar 22 2008, 9:45 am)
SuperSaiyanGokuX wrote:
So while I definitely agree with what you've written, I honestly don't think it applies to BYOND and the types of people we have here...

true, but my point was mostly geared towards those nimrods who fill up the boards with 'what are you gonna do?' posts that have absolutely no place in classified ads.

when they are not even capable of completing their own projects, they have no room to whine about other people asking for help (in any manner) for their projects. and if they do have so much time, then they should be helping, not posting crap.
Oct 17 2006, 3:55 am
Yeah, that sort of garbage bothers me, too... Mostly just in the general "stop being so darn rude to everyone!" sort of way...

However, I still see where that comment comes from...

When you've got someone who posts "I want to make a game, but I need someone to do this, this, this, this, this, and this (and maybe this)" the first thought genuinely is, "what exactly will you be doing, besides taking credit for work everyone else has done?"

It's acceptable if this person shows that they really are one of the brilliant idea-men, but most of the time, it's nothing but "I want to make a DBZ game" or "I want to make a game like nothing else!" or some other vague and empty design idea (showing that this person, who's sole responsibility would be as the designer, hasn't really even done that)

If someone came in, and detailed a really neat game concept, but then added, "I simply don't have any of the skills needed to do this, and would like to lead a team as the designer", I doubt he'd get much flak...

But currently, about all I ever see is the former example... Some kid makes a post that simply looks like they want to publish a game under their name, but with all of the work done by others... It angers people, and they give attitude in return...

But yeah, while the sentiment is often deserved, there's never much call for the level of plain rudeness that's often displayed... The same thing could be explained to these people in a much nicer tone...
Nov 10 2006, 4:00 pm
RealQMark wrote:
Anyway, my point being that management is only when you have total control over a project. Since most projects are assembled without pay, the coder seems to take priority over the entire thing. I like your approach better but it strays from the truth of things. Managing a non-paid staff doesnt quite give power to control them. But as I said, the factors apply.

BYOND means Build Your Own Net Dream. Those who develop games for no pay under someone do it because they have a similar dream as the project leader, hopefully or else team morale goes bye bye like you said. The project leader as a designer, mandatorily if not in the development at all, should have the game designed which gets rid of the team members having to do it. As a leader, he organizes them, giving developers jobs smartly and not rashly to finish the game in an efficient manner. If he is not doing this efficiently, then there's reason to question his authority and the game could still be continued if the rest of the team stays organized. I think the reason people say that there's no room for designers and leaders, specifically in BYOND, is because they see it as someone ordering another to make a game.

We could get some new and great ideas into BYOND besides 60+ Naruto and DBZ games combined if people thought that if the idea was within their best interests. I don't blame people who don't like the noobs who don't give any details about what their game will be like but they do provide a contact the majority of the time, use it! Ask for details. Then if they don't, tell them they need a design before they can start development and that they are going too fast.

Like DigitalMouse said, don't be negative totally at first. First find information then inform the noob, not "yell". If he still doesn't get the picture, he'll leave sooner or later. Or just stick to playing games. Patience is a virtue.