You can turn off the "ugly unhideable overlay."
It's very much usable for pretty much any type of game here on BYOND. "I don't care" is a more valid argument against the webclient than "It doesn't work".
Of course, you'd know these things if you spent more than like 5 minutes with it.
Should this be a thread that promotes argument, or should it be completely answering questions in regards to the survey. It's nice to be able to argue points, but something in the back of my mind sort of feels like the question about the community in itself was a question I shouldn't have asked. Maybe it was too sensitive. I'd like to ask to stay on topic. This thread was mostly to gather the opinions of the community, but I didn't anticipate debate. But I did get an idea.
Regardless, here's two more: Would you consider BYOND as an engine to be oriented towards professional game design, or is it more of a hobbyist tool? Would you recommend BYOND (as a game design engine) to friends? --- My answers: I think of it more as one of those old consoles with limitations that are fun to tinker with. That being said, anything can come out of it, but the majority is stuff you'd see from the hobbyist side. Because BYOND still requires some sort of VM to operate (whether it be on the client or server's side) this makes standalone portability a hassle unless you're hosting for the webclient. I think BYOND is a great thing. When you look at the bigger picture and determine that it's really just a neat little tool to play around with, you don't try to tell it to be something it's not. I always felt like BYOND's scope was geared towards having fun over anything else. Would I recommend it for game design? It depends. For messing around with, of course. Otherwise I'd suggest something more mature, such as Game Maker: Studio or BlitzMax. | |
I'll just go ahead and answer these two because they're pretty obvious.
Would you consider BYOND as an engine to be oriented towards professional game design, or is it more of a hobbyist tool?Depends on who you are, what you do and what you want out of game design. The same way Youtube can be used for both professional and hobbyist works. Would you recommend BYOND (as a game design engine) to friends?Absolutely, it gets the job done, and can handle large scale projects. Like any game engine out there, you just have to know what you're doing to get the job done. Or would people rather just voice their ideas into a microphone and have it output a dvd with your finished game instead (would be pretty cool)? | |
Mr_Goober wrote:
I think of it more as one of those old consoles with limitations that are fun to tinker with. Even old consoles gave you more control. You couldn't even make clipping masks up until the recent update. Your statement is invalid. Because BYOND still requires some sort of VM to operate (whether it be on the client or server's side) this makes standalone portability a hassle unless you're hosting for the webclient. You don't know what you're talking about at all. Standalone by definition wouldn't even depend on the browser. Doohl wrote: It's very much usable for pretty much any type of game here on BYOND. "I don't care" is a more valid argument against the webclient than "It doesn't work". It's inefficient and poorly done. client.screen is drawn twice, yes? The setup is synchronous in a lot of areas and blocks. There's a lot of features that the webclient doesn't currently support, which games may depend on. So no, "I don't care." is not more of a valid argument. You shouldn't be this delusional after how many bugs you reported. You should know by now that the web client doesn't support all games, it depends on the features the game relies on. Ishuri wrote: Depends on who you are, what you do and what you want out of game design. The same way Youtube can be used for both professional and hobbyist works. I agree. Pewdiepie's a joke and doesn't put up any quality content. BYOND's perfectly viable for low quality parody games made by amateurs or of sort. Absolutely, it gets the job done, and can handle large scale projects. Like any game engine out there, you just have to know what you're doing to get the job done. Or would people rather just voice their ideas into a microphone and have it output a dvd with your finished game instead (would be pretty cool)? But here's the thing, in a lot of cases, BYOND doesn't get the job done. There's a lot of things wrong with it. There's a lot of bugs and errors. You have to use workarounds in areas you shouldn't have to, ex: circumvent their shitty erroneous cosine approximation. Can handle large scale projects? Uhh, I consider AAA to be large-scale, nothing you've ever made. | |
I'm not sure how you gathered any of that from what I said. I was simply stating a fact, no good or hugely successful games have yet to be made with BYOND.
I don't know why this is the case, and I don't know if/when it will change (I'd like to see it happen, but I personally don't think it will). But it's simply a fact that this is true. Also for the new questions. 1. Hobbyist. 2. No. Other engines can currently do everything BYOND can but superior in every single way. Recently progress has been made to modernize BYOND and what it's capable of, which is great and all (and I've seen some impressive things being done with it), but it's still miles behind other engines. I only use it because I'm familiar with it and just don't take the hobby seriously enough to go and learn to use something else. | |
The Magic Man wrote:
I don't know why this is the case... I wrote: People that need BYOND don't possess those capabilities and will always make low quality, unprofessional work. That's why everyone that develops with this software is an amateur. Because BYOND is scientifically formulated to attract amateurs. I speak the truth and only the truth. I've seen some impressive things being done with it I've seen nothing impressive done whatsoever. Why? Because I was already well familiar with the implementation to achieve said effects, but according to Lummox's post I'm dead inside for not being wowed by crap. Everyone here lives in the stone ages. The only community member I've seen take any progressive direction is Bandock and his pursuit to extend more WebGL functionality to BYOND. Not that I'm impressed at all by it, it's something I've been over and done with several years ago, but it's still a step above what I'm seeing from anyone else. | |
Mr_Goober wrote:
When did you first begin using DM? How do you like it compared to other languages (if you know any)? I wanna say around 2009, give or take a few months. I started using BYOND in March 2008, but it took a while before I jumped into DM, especially with stuff besides pixel art. I didn't truly get deep into it until 2012 or so I guess. Most of my time was just spent learning it on and off until then, and honestly after taking a crack at a couple other languages I find that it's the most comfortable for me. I really enjoy it, and I think while it has some limitations, it's capable of almost anything I personally want. If it wasn't, I'd take things from there, and not blame it unless it could be reasonably easily improved to handle it. Mr_Goober wrote: There's a lot of allegations saying that the community is doomed, or that we're incompetent to make anything worth "saving" BYOND. What's your take on it? It depends on how you look at it, really. I mean we don't see most of the community here on the forum. They're all off playing the games, usually fan games or SS13 in my opinion, but they're there. And some might say that in its self means the communities doomed, but in my opinion it isn't. It just needs to grow, and in the process change. Once the new publishing options are fully in place, and enough people get some solid games out there that lure people in from OUTSIDE of the BYOND community the same way a select few games have, or perhaps even more, then I think we will start to see a positive change and that things aren't so doomed. Mr_Goober wrote: Would you consider BYOND as an engine to be oriented towards professional game design, or is it more of a hobbyist tool? As much as it pains me to say it, I would say more of a hobbyist tool. It is capable of professional development, no doubt about that, but with the way its set up and advertised I would think it's a hobbyist tool. To use it professionally you have to get to know it on a level the average developer, at this point in time, rarely ever does. Mr_Goober wrote: Would you recommend BYOND (as a game design engine) to friends? Oh I have before, and I most definitely would again. It's a great engine, it is just that you have to make sure your overall goals don't exceed its more than reasonable limitations. I'd be willing to argue it's the easiest to learn, so that in its self makes me recommend it first. | |
How do you feel about the Webclient? I feel the time could have been better spent elsewhere, and that it wasn't worth the effort. I recently became interested in trying to use it seriously, but then I discovered it no longer worked on my machine with no clear reason as to why, so that interest died. Do you know other programming languages besides DM? You can list up to ten. I guess I only know DM, but I can write and have written in other languages. There's a lot of allegations saying that the community is doomed, or that we're incompetent to make anything worth "saving" BYOND. What's your take on it? I don't agree with the idea that a game someone makes is going to "save" BYOND. It must save itself. There are fundamental issues that need to be addressed in order to make BYOND better received to the masses, but I think we are so focused on "polishing this turd," so to speak, that it won't happen. Meanwhile, while the BYOND engine plays "catch up to 2016," other engines are making good progress and leaving BYOND as a software in the dust. | |
Would you consider BYOND as an engine to be oriented towards professional game design, or is it more of a hobbyist tool?
Both :) Would you recommend BYOND (as a game design engine) to friends? Of course, it has potential but I blame the lack of portability with games on not doing so D: I refuse to use the web-client until I can host a randomly selected DMB and have it look/load/play correctly. When did you first begin using DM? How do you like it compared to other languages (if you know any)? The day I joined BYOND, I used 001Engine before BYOND and MYGAMEBUILDER :) memories yo. DM is my first and only language at the moment. There's a lot of allegations saying that the community is doomed, or that we're incompetent to make anything worth "saving" BYOND. What's your take on it? Na, we just gotta work together and be more positive. | |
Yut Put wrote:
attacking everyone who you don't agree with here is as productive as drinking your own piss Just as a quick side note, it's actually safe to drink your own urine. Just be sure to do it in small amounts. Ok, you guys can go back to discussing games and stuff now. | |
Yut Put wrote:
but only a very very small group of us know how because we've been tinkering with the limits of the engine for years You're not a part of that "small group". You don't even possess the ability to modify the software and add your own contrivances alongside it. You are unworthy to speak of this as if it's from experience; you act as if your "accomplishments" have meaning in this ocean of basket cases. You created low quality art and low quality programming in an engine that does not require neither skill nor talent to create something in, gj. chances are he'll have significantly less interest once he realizes this Speak for yourself, not everyone's a depressed little child that needs to find a "passion" to drive them. The reason you've lost interest is because you found out that everything requires work, and you don't want to work. also pls stop being fuccbois and acknowledge that this is an opinion post and that attacking everyone who you don't agree with here is as productive as drinking your own piss Not everything's stated as an opinion and not all opinions are weighted equally, so no. | |
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Just as a quick side note, it's actually safe to drink your own urine. Just be sure to do it in small amounts.lol | |
Kozuma3 wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote: Urotherapy can be productive in the eyes of the diseased. He's an idiot. I am the only reasonable forum poster. I am the legendary Shatan. I used to be a symbol of hope, someone that could have saved BYOND, until the moderators betrayed me. Very few can see my messages. I am but a ghost now. | |
Here's two more. Also it might help to paste the question with an appended answer just so that it's easier to see what the answers are referring to.
Should BYOND's software be open-sourced? How often do you use the Credits / Subscription system that BYOND has built-in? My answers: BYOND would benefit from being open-sourced so that more than just Lummox could work on the software to help make it better. While Lummox could hold the rights to the master branch, this can encourage other forks which, in turn, can manage their own edits and push back to master if any features are worthy to commit. I haven't really used the subscription / credits system personally because I haven't made any substantial games worth monetizing from. :[ | |
Yut Put wrote:
also pls stop being fuccbois and acknowledge that this is an opinion post and that attacking everyone who you don't agree with here is as productive as drinking your own piss Bear Grylls has taught me that drinking your own piss is good shit | |
Mr_Goober wrote:
Should BYOND's software be open-sourced? No, because it's probably outdated and poorly written C++03. Also anyone that knows C++ and the Windows API will be able to create another BYOND from the ground up. I could do it if I wished. Aaiko did something similar, but went in a different direction. How often do you use the Credits / Subscription system that BYOND has built-in? That whole system is deeply flawed in security and exploitable. I'd NEVER use it. They need to replace the whole hub password schema with something else. It sort of reminds me of the computer_id collisions reported a few weeks ago; you can chain ban anyone if you know their computer_id. The systems in place are so bad and are only protected through obfuscation and user ignorance. | |
Yut Put wrote:
1. if the software were open sourced i think that there are MANY users who would take advantage of this, and it would be a very proactive step towards detaching the website/business/whatever you wanna call it from the software. IMO nothing but good would come from it. The SS13 people would definitely flip their shit The SS13 community consists of a bunch of incompetent squares that I habitually humiliate. Any additions they make to the software would be garbage, otherwise they would have made their own VM by now. Also if BYOND were to become open-source, .dmb's format would become open and a lot of other present software vulnerabilities. What you're suggesting would result in complete disaster and destroy what's left of BYOND. Either that's what you want or you're further demonstrating how much of an idiot you are. | |
Mr_Goober wrote:
Should BYOND's software be open-sourced? I'm pretty iffy about this. On one hand, I would love to see what people could do, and I think awesome things would come of it. On the other it could be very chaotic, and divide what little we already have until BYOND is just something things like SS13 use. I guess it would depend on how the open sourcing were done. Mr_Goober wrote: How often do you use the Credits / Subscription system that BYOND has built-in? I haven't had a chance to use Credits yet, but I used the Subscription system in the only game I ever fully released so far, and I fully intend to use it and/or BYOND Memberships in just about every project I ever make. I don't just want to see myself succeed, I want to see BYOND succeed; so as long as the system can do what I need it to do I'll use it. Otherwise I would just use my own, and donate directly. | |
I love how the mentality of most people here is, "because users of the engine are failing, so must I. We are tethered, we are one, therefore our failures are merged."
Not necessarily calling you out on anything because a lot of people around here do this, but it DOES kinda sound like an excuse more than anything. What's Severed World's excuse going to be when they actually deliver something big to BYOND?
-"uhm, I actually tried...?"