I just happened on this document by mistake when I was searching for Jules Verne (you'll see his name if you look at it in detail...).
Essentially, it proves our current technology ("our" referring to the globe's total technology level) is completely and utterly incapable of travelling even to the nearest star. Even at the speed of light, it would take 4.3 years. And we can't go anywhere near the speed of light... in fact, at current achievable speeds, it would take the better part of EIGHTY THOUSAND YEARS! And that's not even taking into consideration exactly how much fuel you would need for the journey.
(In fact, their calculations say there isn't even enough chemical fuel in the galaxy to launch the ship to the destination in 900 years!)
Anyway, I find it really amusing, and it does help me with Warrior a bit, for when I get around to it.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/warp.htm
ID:194394
 May 10 2001, 8:47 pm
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On 5/11/01 1:42 am sunzoner wrote:
IF we go the rate of wrights bro to supersonic jet (less than 50 years???), we just might do something like a engine to take us there. FULE! YOU DONT NEED FULE IN SPACE! FULE IS TO GET YOU gOING! after you are going you dont stop... no wait in space you are always stoped! you dont move in space you just make everything else move in the opposit dir you are traveling! | |
Hehehehe...
Well, this is all pie-in-the-sky stuff anyways. Even using the most efficient methods (ION/Antimatter), they left out the most prohibitive factor of all. COST. My grandfather has been a scientist at JPL (NASA's brother organization, resposible for all the unmanned flights, telescopes, and probes), and when JPL was formulating plans for a probe that would travel 1000 AU's at a desired speed of .25c (1/4 light speed), they determined that the cost to produce enough antimatter to propel the probe would cost on the order of a few BILLION DOLLARS per liter! In order to produce enough fuel for the trip, it would have cost many hundred trillon, or even a quadrillion dollars, just to create the fuel. Never mind the risks of having that much ultra-explosive, highly unstable material on the planet... hehehe Mr. Sanity | |
On 5/11/01 10:39 am jobe wrote:
On 5/11/01 1:42 am sunzoner wrote: Well, for starters, I imagine getting up to a significant fraction of the speed of light would take quite a bit of fuel. Also, for a trip that long (or even a short one, but ESPECIALLY for a long one)) it would probably be pretty dumb not to take along any fuel. What happens if you find you need to make some navigational corrections? You're zooming through zillions of miles, and you're telling me that there's a 0% chance that anything would alter your flight course just a little bit? If the ship were to swerve off course by a tiny fraction of one percent of a degree, that would probably be enough to make it miss. | |
On 5/11/01 10:39 am jobe wrote:
On 5/11/01 1:42 am sunzoner wrote: Au contraire, mon frère. What would be the ideal situation, which they calculated for, is if they took a continuous burn of fuel until they reached the apogee of the journey, at which point they would flip the ship around 180 degrees and do a continuous burn until they stopped at the destination. If you want to get somewhere fast, you continuously accelerate, applying more and more thrust, until further thrust would be meaningless (i.e. thrust only gives a 1e-32 m/s2 acceleration, etc.). That's how velocity in space works. after you are going you dont stop... no wait in space you are always stoped! you dont move in space you just make everything else move in the opposit dir you are traveling! If you're taking yourself as a reference frame, then yes, everything else is travelling towards you, and you don't seem to be moving. You are never actually stopped; it just seems that way. If you are taking a third-person reference frame (relative to space), the ship is moving through space. | |
On 5/11/01 12:11 pm Leftley wrote:
On 5/11/01 10:39 am jobe wrote: ok look here! YOU are the CENTER of the universe at ALL times! this is due to the fact that the universe is INFINATE! IT DOSE NOT STOP! only matter in it stops... so to think of it as you are a small dot in the universe that maove around is wrong. the unizers is infinate... so the ceanter is only in realationship to something else.... and scince you are you...and only in realationship to you... YOU ARE THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE! to think of things in realation to earth or to the matter created in the universe with the big bang is wrong. (note to all readers... i have a masters in phisics, sooooo..... this may take awhile). if the ship were to change direction even a little bit you would have to wait a LONG time to get it back into position with any sort of fule burst. and the fule burst would have to be MOJORLY small..... the point is... you dont move... EVER! when you travel the entire unizerse is moveing to make sure YOU are in the center. so in order to move the unizerse 3.4 million light years you would only have to its speed. once the speed of the unizerse you want is set it will not take ANY fule for the trip... in fact 1 gallon of anti hadrogen would get you to alpha centuri and back over 3 . (note: this is only the travel part.. it would take the same amount of fule to stop as it would to get there.) well i could go on for awhile more but i am haveing some problems right now with going insain.. (that happens when you are smart and have just about nothing to do for a few months) | |
ok look here! YOU are the CENTER of the universe at ALL times! this is due to the fact that the universe is INFINATE! IT DOSE NOT STOP! only matter in it stops... so to think of it as you are a small dot in the universe that maove around is wrong. the unizers is infinate... so the ceanter is only in realationship to something else.... and scince you are you...and only in realationship to you... YOU ARE THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE! I see. And I presume you've verified that fact, through careful experimentation and years of research? The universe has neither been proven to be infinite, nor been proven to be finite. =) And there are lots of different things in relation to each other; are you saying that there are 6 billion centres of the universe on this planet? That I'm the centre of the universe, and that you are the centre of the universe too? If you were to move 50 googal light years from me, would the universe be stretched between us? to think of things in realation to earth or to the matter created in the universe with the big bang is wrong. (note to all readers... i have a masters in phisics, sooooo..... this may take awhile). if the ship were to change direction even a little bit you would have to wait a LONG time to get it back into position with any sort of fule burst. and the fule burst would have to be MOJORLY small..... the point is... you dont move... EVER! when you travel the entire unizerse is moveing to make sure YOU are in the center. so in order to move the unizerse 3.4 million light years you would only have to its speed. once the speed of the unizerse you want is set it will not take ANY fule for the trip... in fact 1 gallon of anti hadrogen would get you to alpha centuri and back over 3 . (note: this is only the travel part.. it would take the same amount of fule to stop as it would to get there.) Yes; anti-hydrogen is a very viable fuel source. But we can't store it, we can't use it, and we can't keep it stable for longer than several thousandths of a second. Even a magnetic chamber, using plasma coils to contain anti-hydrogen, doesn't preserve it for more than a second. So, what they're saying is, it isn't possible. At least, not with current technology, and not with the forseeable technology. In fact, it is quite probable that the human race will live and die on this planet, or at least, in this solar system. | |
with the theory base i have each one of us is our OWN unizers in terms.. and each one of our universes interact with one another... ARG!!!!!!! I gOT SO MUCH SHIT TO SAY BUT IT CANNOT BE EXPLAINED IN VERBAL THOUGHT!!!!! what i am saying is our universe is dimentinal to about 9 dimentions. each one works for each person. you have you own higth width length mass... you know this right.. and you have your time in your universe. some peaple find things faster than others (there have been studys on this.. i think even steven hawkings did a paper on how there are time differances for each steller object) but there are another 4 dimentions we think exist.. and we use... one of them is, for lack of a better word, being. this is where we state we exist and so we have our own universe. the others are hard to explain but it all comes down to the fact that you are and space is infinite. they also state that everything occupys the same space in other forms of dimentions. ok it is a little hard to explain.. everything is touching everything becase everything has touched everything at one time... and that time loops and twirls over and over.. so right now as i am typeing this i am also in a zillon pieces in an infinite number of places.. and that fact would stat that if i ever figured out how to get to alpha centuri i would be there already... and in one piece.. so all i would have to do was mess with the time and being dimentions a bit and i could be there whenever i wanted.. witch means i could be anywhere i wanted at any time.. well im a few years off from that one but it is sound logic... even if i cant tell you verbaly...........
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Well, pardon me, as I've only taken a single high school course in physics taught by a man who by his own admission knew next to nothing about physics*, but why is it that airplanes, for example, clearly cannot merely get the universe moving at a certain speed relative to themselves and then coast along while the rest of the universe moves for them? (Yeah, I realize this is gonna take a long time to explain. Think of it as somethin' to do for the next few months to prevent going insane.)
*Not an insult to my teacher. Our school has just had some very clumsy personnel shifts in the past year, so a few teachers ended up getting stuck teaching classes they had no qualifications for. P.S. As many, MANY mistakes as they've been known to make, significantly, NASA has a LOT of masters in physics. So while these might be perfectly great theories, I think it's safe to assume that NASA's already taken them into account in this report. | |
On 5/11/01 6:06 pm Leftley wrote:
Well, pardon me, as I've only taken a single high school course in physics taught by a man who by his own admission knew next to nothing about physics*, but why is it that airplanes, for example, clearly cannot merely get the universe moving at a certain speed relative to themselves and then coast along while the rest of the universe moves for them? (Yeah, I realize this is gonna take a long time to explain. Think of it as somethin' to do for the next few months to prevent going insane.) i can explain it in one word.... gravity. done. an object can move the unizes untill some force acts opon the object to change the motion of the universe. you have to remember that the universe is just a realation to an object.. so when one things acts on the object to change the speed or direction of that one part of the universe (like the gravity of a planet) the entire universe for the entire universe must move... as the entire universe is only one thing with interworking parts in realation to its center (the object in mention). that did not take too long did it? heh........... | |
On 5/11/01 7:43 pm jobe wrote:
On 5/11/01 6:06 pm Leftley wrote: i must say this board is getting more fun every day..... | |
i can explain it in one word.... gravity. done. an object can move the unizes untill some force acts opon the object to change the motion of the universe. you have to remember that the universe is just a realation to an object.. so when one things acts on the object to change the speed or direction of that one part of the universe (like the gravity of a planet) the entire universe for the entire universe must move... as the entire universe is only one thing with interworking parts in realation to its center (the object in mention). that did not take too long did it? Right. That part's obvious. But I was under the impression that an object's gravity acts upon the entire rest of the universe. It doesn't act very STRONGLY; since gravity works on an inverse square basis, it gets small very quickly as distance increases. But just because net gravitational pull is infintesmally small way out in space doesn't mean that the force is nonexistant. Earth's gravity is just as real when you're millions of miles away as it is when you're standing on the surface; it just doesn't do very much at all to anything that's millions of miles away, right? Now, I don't know, but it seems to me that if the spaceship on its way out to wherever, if it passes near enough a massive enough object, then that object's gravity might be enough to swing the spaceship off course. I'm not sure how near or how massive the object would have to be, but like I said, if you were counting on just having one big boom right here and letting it coast to Alpha Centauri or wherever, then when planning your takeoff you'd need to take into account the net gravitational pull at every single point in the journey. I dunno, maybe the path to Alpha Centauri is very clear, and the spaceship wouldn't come close enough to any massive objects to affect its flight course any. But I'm still gonna say that it sounds like a pretty big risk to just be tossing spaceships out into space and hoping they stay on course without any guidance. | |
On 5/11/01 8:08 pm Leftley wrote:
i can explain it in one word.... gravity. done. an object can move the unizes untill some force acts opon the object to change the motion of the universe. you have to remember that the universe is just a realation to an object.. so when one things acts on the object to change the speed or direction of that one part of the universe (like the gravity of a planet) the entire universe for the entire universe must move... as the entire universe is only one thing with interworking parts in realation to its center (the object in mention). that did not take too long did it? well your right! gravity is always existant from all points and it dose form a parabela. but the thing about it is that if i flug you anywhere out in space you would have pull from EVERYTHING this being your universe. but the thing is that each point is so minute that you have basicly the same force applyed to evey point on the ship from evey direction and the only factors you would have to worry about is the amount of mass on all sides of you and if you would come close to any larg mass objects.. witch there are none in the pathe to alpha centuri outside out solor system seeing as it is the closest thing to us. well what do i know.. im some dude going crazy in front of his computer... i give up.. you fucking win dude.... perhaps everything is as it seems and all the forces in the universe have been explained and you are just some cog in a macine built by god in the form of some huge mass that was a singularity. and in this god made dencity changes that would deside how all things work and would ever equil becase you are just a gathering of quarks (or whatever is the smalles partical that we may find latter)interacting as they were programed to do in with the differing dencity of that mass that god made that would latter be called the big bang. perhaps. | |
well your right! gravity is always existant from all points and it dose form a parabela. but the thing about it is that if i flug you anywhere out in space you would have pull from EVERYTHING this being your universe. but the thing is that each point is so minute that you have basicly the same force applyed to evey point on the ship from evey direction and the only factors you would have to worry about is the amount of mass on all sides of you and if you would come close to any larg mass objects.. witch there are none in the pathe to alpha centuri outside out solor system seeing as it is the closest thing to us. well what do i know.. im some dude going crazy in front of his computer... i give up.. you fucking win dude.... perhaps everything is as it seems and all the forces in the universe have been explained and you are just some cog in a macine built by god in the form of some huge mass that was a singularity. and in this god made dencity changes that would deside how all things work and would ever equil becase you are just a gathering of quarks (or whatever is the smalles partical that we may find latter)interacting as they were programed to do in with the differing dencity of that mass that god made that would latter be called the big bang. perhaps. Or, human beings could be a complete chance landing by an asteroid containing higher level proteins that accidentally splattered into a budding planet orbiting a small yellow star. Which I'm inclined to believe. And the universe itself could have always existed... after all, when I didn't exist, my parents still did. To me, it was a vague and undetermined state, because my reference frame didn't exist (sort of like dividing by zero). But they did exist. I am starting to become a little annoyed; watch your language. You've done that twice now... | |
well your right! gravity is always existant from all points and it dose form a parabela. but the thing about it is that if i flug you anywhere out in space you would have pull from EVERYTHING this being your universe. but the thing is that each point is so minute that you have basicly the same force applyed to evey point on the ship from evey direction and the only factors you would have to worry about is the amount of mass on all sides of you and if you would come close to any larg mass objects.. witch there are none in the pathe to alpha centuri outside out solor system seeing as it is the closest thing to us. well what do i know.. im some dude going crazy in front of his computer... i give up.. you fucking win dude.... perhaps everything is as it seems and all the forces in the universe have been explained and you are just some cog in a macine built by god in the form of some huge mass that was a singularity. and in this god made dencity changes that would deside how all things work and would ever equil becase you are just a gathering of quarks (or whatever is the smalles partical that we may find latter)interacting as they were programed to do in with the differing dencity of that mass that god made that would latter be called the big bang. perhaps. OK, look, I'm not saying I know everything. I'm not saying I know ANYTHING, for that matter. All I'm saying is that it sounds like an awfully good idea to provide for a good bit of in-flight navigation in case something goes wrong. In a perfect world, yeah, we could just aim a rocket a bit, send it off, and let it coast across millions of miles of space. And hey, I'm not saying that we for sure couldn't do just that, and do it over and over again with a 100% success rate. But there isn't exactly a lot of room for fudging on calculations with this approach, and, well, we're talking NASA here. | |
On 5/11/01 12:11 pm Leftley wrote:
Well, for starters, I imagine getting up to a significant fraction of the speed of light would take quite a bit of fuel. Also, for a trip that long (or even a short one, but ESPECIALLY for a long one)) it would probably be pretty dumb not to take along any fuel. What happens if you find you need to make some navigational corrections? You're zooming through zillions of miles, and you're telling me that there's a 0% chance that anything would alter your flight course just a little bit? If the ship were to swerve off course by a tiny fraction of one percent of a degree, that would probably be enough to make it miss. Fuel, rockets... The whole idea is quite silly to me. Who wants to sit on a mountain of explosives and experience ridiculous conscious sensations? Space travel can be achieved much more efficient by controlling gravity. When the current model of the atom is improved, we can control sub-atomic processes and create a field that repel atoms, and "blast" ourselves into space that way. Gravity WILL be controlled, by using some ingenious equations called the Natural University equations (NU-Equations). They are not easy to understand, some degree in maths and physics are required, but the ideas are there. If you feel for a challenge, download it here. The article is not a dream. It is a fact. Everything in it works, when we can acquire values of the constants in the equations. When reading it, remember that the mind is like a parachute. It only works when open... The second step towards space travel is in the article. If you find it too difficult, there is another article from the same author, which is about the same concept (but not gravity). Much easier to understand and highly recommended. Read it here. /Andreas | |
OF course this assume that we would not fight any more of those wars...
Live long and prosper...