Most game-players these days, most notably the "RPGers" are brought up around games like Final Fantasy or anything made by Square/Squaresoft. Basically games where you start off as a wimp, and build up until you are strong enough to defeat the ultimate bad guy, all the while going through some kind of story that gives you just enough to keep you from getting bored during this strength boosting journey.
The problem I see is, this concept has migrated into online "RPGs." The initial meaning of RPG as a game where you play the role of a character in a story has long since been lost, and now simply means "A game where you collect weapons and defeat bad guys to get stronger, until you're so strong that nothing can stop you." AD&D is like that, every game by Squaresoft that I've ever played is like that. So I can only assume that the average player views the term "RPG" like that.
Well, this concept of gaining power until you are unstoppable belongs in games like that, but it doesn't belong in online gaming. In single player games it's you versus the computer. When you prove to be the more powerful, you get the good feeling, and the computer gets nothing, and that can be fun, because everyone benefits, which is why it's a game, because it's fun. But when this concept is applied to online gaming, when one player becomes strong and beats the crap out of a weaker player, the stronger player gets the good feeling, and the weaker player gets hurt or frustrated by the experience, often times. This is not a lifeless computer you're playing against, these are other people, but they tend to forget that.
A game where you roleplay against the computer is a whole lot harder to do, because it requires that the computer actually do something besides repeat the attack command. On top of that it tends to be uninteresting if a player did something unexpected, a computer would fail to respond appropriately. That is why roleplaying online is so much of an improvement, because it's real people you're playing with, not just some dumb computer. What you say actually means something to them.
Well, I'd continue this more but dinner is ready, so I'm going to end this now. I just wanted to write some stuff on why I feel that roleplaying is more suited to online gaming than any kind of powerleveling is, because powerleveling belongs in single-player gaming.
THE END
ID:193683
 Nov 17 2001, 3:54 pm
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Nov 17 2001, 4:14 pm
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BurningIce
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Yup. And they try to make it seem more like an RPG by letting you name the character. WOW! I dont think I've ever seen a consol RPG.
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BurningIce wrote:
Yup. And they try to make it seem more like an RPG by letting you name the character. WOW! I dont think I've ever seen a consol RPG. A console RPG is any so-called roleplaying game played on a game console like SNES, NES, or PlayStation. | |
I dont agree totally, but I do to some degree.
I will have to say that not every game is about nothing but power leveling and playing through a story. Rpg means Role Playing Game. where you take the role of a character. That is true in an online rpg. You are the character, you say what you type, and that is playing a role. Unless of course you blurt out things that dont belong in the game, such as "My computer is 800 mhz!!", which has nothing to do with what is currently going on in the game. I believe that if people learned to role play, we wouldnt have so many games that you claim to have no rpg value. Its because of the players, that these games shape and form like this. I believe you can almost take any given online rpg, and see where it is actually role playing. For some games this isnt true, but for the most part it is. Take Ultima Online, some people say its nothing but skill gaining and fighting monsters in deep dungeons, but when you go to that bank, and ask "Wilst thou venture with thee?", thats where the role playing takes place. Besides, if you take a step back and look at the game overall, its nothing but a computer program. Not everything is going to require you to role play. Such as logging into an account, signing up for one, or even paying the bill that the game charges. These are downfalls of online games, but they must exist for them to work. Concluding, I think you dont see past that. I think you are just looking at the imediate material in today's online rpg's. You need to take a look into the game. Instead of thinking about your hand on the mouse, and the keys that you are pressing, think about the people standing around you, where you are at, and what you are doing in the game. Become the character you are roleplaying. Sorry for rambling on about nonesense that doesnt make any sense(neither did that), but im bored! yippy!? FIREking | |
Maybe the difference in views is based on difference conceptions of what powerleveling and roleplaying are.
My idea of powerleveling is doing whatever it takes to increase your character's power, thus giving them more ability to explore the game and also more power over others (be then monsters, NPC, or fellow players). Therefor because one player can have so much power over another player, it easily takes the fun out of the game for the weaker player, because "power corrupts" and players tend to abuse whatever they've got over other players. On the other hand, my idea of roleplay is taking the role of a character in part of a story. While this works in most single player powerleveling games, because one player can play a linear plotline, it does not generally work, especially with a large number of players. I think of it more as an interactive play of sorts, where each player has a role to play to enhance the ongoing story. It's not about who's got the more powerful sword, or who can boss around who or slay them if they don't cooperate, unless it's in line with the story (Grand Admiral to the Captured Slave). | |
Talking in phony Middle English as you try to max out your stats does not a roleplaying experience make. On the other hand, the idea that powerleveling "belongs only in single player games" (paraphrased) is a bit extremist. Powerleveling games can be fun, but you shouldn't try to fool yourself or anyone else about the nature of a powerleveling game. Also--and I know some people disagree with me on this--I think that if you use rewards of bonus experience for roleplaying-style activity, it's just as much a powerleveling game as if you only give experience points for bashing on monsters repeatedly--of course, a more interesting and immersive powerleveling game, to be sure. Actually, at some level most any game is going to be a powerleveling game, and there's probably a line to be drawn somewhere but my line-drawing pen is out of ink. Oh well.
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BurningIce wrote:
I know that... So you've never ever, once in your life, played a console RPG? Where have you been in the last decade?! =P | |
Im talking about a true RPG like D&D. But now that I remember I have played one. Star Ocean. It was pretty good but its the closest thing Ive seen to a consol RPG.
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GateGuardian wrote:
Most game-players these days, most notably the "RPGers" are brought up around games like Final Fantasy or anything made by Square/Squaresoft. Basically games where you start off as a wimp, and build up until you are strong enough to defeat the ultimate bad guy, all the while going through some kind of story that gives you just enough to keep you from getting bored during this strength boosting journey. Ok. I really dont like it when squaresoft games are said they have barely any story. In final fantasy 3, which is final fantasy 6 in america, and also named into final fantasy anthology, It provided me days of entertainment from the awesome story. I would try to stop playing but I just had to know the next little bit of story. Same thing with FF9, I played hours and some days to see if I'd get blank un-stoned. I think they have tons of story. The problem I see is, this concept has migrated into online "RPGs." The initial meaning of RPG as a game where you play the role of a character in a story has long since been lost, and now simply means "A game where you collect weapons and defeat bad guys to get stronger, until you're so strong that nothing can stop you." AD&D is like that, every game by Squaresoft that I've ever played is like that. So I can only assume that the average player views the term "RPG" like that. Ok, This I dont like. You call AD&D a powerlevel game eh? eh? No one insults the great AD&D! You have to think before fighting, you can rush into a group of 5 Illithids with your piny bastard sword, hoping to cut off their heads! No, you have to see if your mage can somehow manage to pull a sleep or hold spell, heck if they are strong enough have them do a time stop, run up, use imnprisonment, ran back, at watch them stay in a small sphere, in suspended animation, under the earth, as long as earth exists unless their buddies try casting freedom! You either havn't played AD&D, or the people you played it with obiouvsly didnt GM well. I once played and I almost freakin died in the beginning when we were in a small sized castle. 'course I was the little bugger theif and noticed in the middle of a hall were 4 statues, holding wands. One of our team mates (a warrior I beleive) threw a rock, then threw a orange which it litteraly sent flying orange juice everywhere! Lucky though I stole the little wand buggers.... And squaresoft only needs to have you kill stuff becuase what would you do to a boss or monsters? ask it to stop beating the living cra...yola out of you? Heck no. Well, I've proved my point here, moving on. Well, this concept of gaining power until you are unstoppable belongs in games like that, but it doesn't belong in online gaming. In single player games it's you versus the computer. When you prove to be the more powerful, you get the good feeling, and the computer gets nothing, and that can be fun, because everyone benefits, which is why it's a game, because it's fun. But when this concept is applied to online gaming, when one player becomes strong and beats the crap out of a weaker player, the stronger player gets the good feeling, and the weaker player gets hurt or frustrated by the experience, often times. This is not a lifeless computer you're playing against, these are other people, but they tend to forget that. Well, most games now only have you kill stuff because their makers are too lazy to make a story and anything else. besides, sometimes killing releives frustration which is probably why powerleveling games exist. A game where you roleplay against the computer is a whole lot harder to do, because it requires that the computer actually do something besides repeat the attack command. On top of that it tends to be uninteresting if a player did something unexpected, a computer would fail to respond appropriately. That is why roleplaying online is so much of an improvement, because it's real people you're playing with, not just some dumb computer. What you say actually means something to them. ....lost me there. what do you mean by a computer failing to respond? Well, I'd continue this more but dinner is ready, so I'm going to end this now. I just wanted to write some stuff on why I feel that roleplaying is more suited to online gaming than any kind of powerleveling is, because powerleveling belongs in single-player gaming. the AD&D dude who thinks he's proven a point- -Geo | |
GateGuardian wrote:
... On the other hand, my idea of roleplay is taking the role of a character in part of a story. While this works in most single player powerleveling games, because one player can play a linear plotline, it does not generally work, especially with a large number of players. I think of it more as an interactive play of sorts, where each player has a role to play to enhance the ongoing story. It's not about who's got the more powerful sword, or who can boss around who or slay them if they don't cooperate, unless it's in line with the story (Grand Admiral to the Captured Slave). What about Diablo? I'm role-playing a Barbarian and power-levelling at the same time! "Its not what you do, but why." | |
Ok. I really dont like it when squaresoft games are said they have barely any story. In final fantasy 3, which is final fantasy 6 in america, and also named into final fantasy anthology, It provided me days of entertainment from the awesome story. I would try to stop playing but I just had to know the next little bit of story. Same thing with FF9, I played hours and some days to see if I'd get blank un-stoned. I think they have tons of story.<<< I agree, Final Fantasy 3 does have a good story, but it still feeds it to you a little bit at a time, and filling in the gaps with a bunch of monster fighting while walking through a maze and collecting powerups, effectively. The only thing that keeps you playing is wanting to know what the next bit of story is! If they took out the powerleveling, then it'd be a short game. Ok, This I dont like. You call AD&D a powerlevel game eh? eh? No one insults the great AD&D! You have to think before fighting, you can rush into a group of 5 Illithids with your piny bastard sword, hoping to cut off their heads! No, you have to see if your mage can somehow manage to pull a sleep or hold spell, heck if they are strong enough have them do a time stop, run up, use imnprisonment, ran back, at watch them stay in a small sphere, in suspended animation, under the earth, as long as earth exists unless their buddies try casting freedom! You either havn't played AD&D, or the people you played it with obiouvsly didnt GM well. I once played and I almost freakin died in the beginning when we were in a small sized castle. 'course I was the little bugger theif and noticed in the middle of a hall were 4 statues, holding wands. One of our team mates (a warrior I beleive) threw a rock, then threw a orange which it litteraly sent flying orange juice everywhere! Lucky though I stole the little wand buggers.... And squaresoft only needs to have you kill stuff becuase what would you do to a boss or monsters? ask it to stop beating the living cra...yola out of you? Heck no. Well, I've proved my point here, moving on.<<< You're right, to my knowledge AD&D is relative to the players playing it (including the GM), so my experience is probably the bad one. Well, most games now only have you kill stuff because their makers are too lazy to make a story and anything else. besides, sometimes killing releives frustration which is probably why powerleveling games exist.<< Players can relieve frustration in singleplayer. They don't need to go online and ruin the game for other players to make them feel better. ....lost me there. what do you mean by a computer failing to respond?<<< Because they weren't programmed to. | |
....lost me there. what do you mean by a computer failing to respond?<<< Naturally, it helps a lot here if you simply program them to respond as well as they possibly can be programmed--which is probably a lot better than most people would give them credit, although then you get into CPU efficiency... creating a computer AI that can respond reasonably well in a cinematic roleplaying environment would not be too spectacularly hard. Creating an expansive world that can efficiently handle many thousands of these AIs--or even just around a hundred--probably would be. | |
Naturally, it helps a lot here if you simply program them to respond as well as they possibly can be programmed--which is probably a lot better than most people would give them credit, although then you get into CPU efficiency... creating a computer AI that can respond reasonably well in a cinematic roleplaying environment would not be too spectacularly hard. Creating an expansive world that can efficiently handle many thousands of these AIs--or even just around a hundred--probably would be. My solution is just to have all mob entities controlled by a central AI brain; this brain merely keeps track of which mobs are aware of which information, but is the central respository for all knowledge. This saves a lot of processing time, since it only has to query one brain (which thinks often) rather than query hundreds of brains (which think rarely) -- the hundreds of brains add up to more than the single brain does. | |
I heard on the news the other day that some military programmer or something developed a program based off The Sims to help predict how terrorists may try to achieve their goal, and whenever the simulated intelligence achieves their goal in the simulation, it retraces their actions to find out how they did it. Interesting (slight sarcasm), maybe someone could hack into the Maxis central computer and download the sourcecode for it or somethings...
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