Goku72 wrote:

And, may I ask what you define as, "intelligent"? I still am curious as to how they could say Dracon was the culprit. I wish to know of these, "trusted sources".

You know two of them already: Lexy and myself. We both witnessed pages from Dracon, who said he was hosting. The third got a look at the listing of people in the game, which for a while was just Dracon.

If they are like anyone else who doesn't like DragonBall Z, or anything else of that nature. They'd say "yep, sure did" to get another, "DBZer" out of BYOND.

None of us who saw Dracon's activity had any ax to grind against him, nor would we stoop to lying just to drive someone away--let alone just for being a DBZer. Don't be ridiculous.

And, about someone saying that they saw only Dracon's key logged into the fake game under HrH's hub, how would they first off know it was he who created the false game?

The fact that he was hosting it would matter for something, wouldn't it?

And, how would one know if he was in fact the ONLY one logged in, since you're invisible to the HUB by simply turning your pager off.

This is a valid point, but not an especially great one since this witness basically just corroborated that Dracon's key was logged in, and apparently no others were. This was besides at least two people receiving pages from Dracon, who said outright that he was hosting.

So, I ask...what REAL proof does anyone have other than a bunch of stuck up "intelligent" people who believe they're better than someone else because of what they like.

As Lexy has already astutely pointed out, as have I, there's no evidence that could be collected that wouldn't have to be filtered through a witness anyway. (Unless of course Dracon admitted on the forums to what he did.) If you don't trust somebody, you won't trust their evidence.

I might add that the fact that you don't trust Lexy or me, or find us "stuck up" or think we believe we're better than anyone based on preferences (that's an awful lot of projection there, isn't it?), doesn't really matter for crap. You don't have to trust us, and you can conjecture about what we think all you like. Dantom find our word reliable, as we've never lied to this community. (Well, I speak for myself there, but I've never seen Lexy do anything underhanded.) Three very trustworthy people saw Dracon's key up to no good, and the fact that you don't share that trust, or ascribe to us motives we don't have, is entirely your own problem.

All you can say for yourself or Dracon is that the witnesses must have lied, because obviously Dracon couldn't have done what you refuse to believe he would do. Since you shut down the idea right off the bat that he could be guilty of anything, our word matters not at all to you, and thus you have to concoct an elaborate excuse. We must have conspired to lie about Dracon to get him banned, you reason, because we're "stuck up" and we hate DBZers and Dracon's a DBZer and hey maybe we could get rid of him. Really, really thin. Truth be told, if the three of us were willing to stoop to such a thing to get rid of one person, Dracon would have been very low on our target list.

It sounds like an indefinite breach on one's human rights and a right to a fair trial.

There is no "human right" that allows anyone to abuse an online community or even to be unconditionally welcomed in one. BYOND is a privately operated space, which means the concept of "human rights" doesn't apply here. Trolls and troll huggers love to cry "Freedom of speech!" whenever they think they're being oppressed, just because someone saw fit to--gasp!--enforce rules. You're basically using the same argument, to just as little effect. Dracon still has freedom of speech, and he still has human rights; he just doesn't have them here, because there's no such thing here. The management reserves the right to eject disruptive patrons.

Since this is not a criminal act for which Dracon will serve jail time or have to pay anything by court order, the concept of a "fair trial" also does not apply. Dantom are the ultimate judge here, and they obviously found the testimony convincing enough to act.

And, not to mention discrimination in some degree.

Aye. To discriminate is to separate. Dantom have separated the hub from Dracon, who was abusing it.

Lummox JR

Goku72 wrote:

I didn't say ALL DragonBall Z fans were too wise on words. But, what I'm saying is that judgement upon one and making it a precedent to impose that another fan is the same way. Just because one person acts like a moron doesn't seem fit to judge another because of their likes/dislikes.

You act as though being a DBZ fan had anything at all to do with why Dracon was banned. It didn't, and everyone who knows what happened has said so. Dracon was abusing the hub, and he's been accused of nothing beyond that.

As stawman arguments go, this is one of the lamest I've ever seen.

I just wish to see ACTUAL proof to what they have against him other than some one's word. I wish to see IP logs, screen shots...conversation's, etc...And all you give me is, "because we said so".

I repeat: If our word is no good (to you), then our evidence is no good (to you). Screen shots can be altered; pages can be made up. I didn't preserve the page I got from Dracon anyway. Lexy did keep her pager conversation with him, but whether she's willing to repost it here is her own call. If you don't believe her word, then you won't believe her page.

I don't see that as a fit argument other than, "I've got power and you don't".

This strawman is every bit as thin as the last. Nobody mentioned power except you.

Lummox JR

Gughunter wrote:

I regret to announce that I cannot participate in this thread due to my non-disclosure agreement with Oliver Stone.

Heh. Reminds me of a quote I have:

"My favorite conspiracy theory I saw in a cartoon the other day... it was called 'Oliver Stone's Titanic' and it showed a second iceberg." --James Cameron

Goku72 wrote:

I was just stating that perhaps there's room for error? Because, in my opinion...Dracon is just not capable of doing this. Not because he won't, but because he can't. He just doesn't understand how it would work to "fake out a hub". Maybe he does, and I don't know about it?

Dracon's rapsheet includes pager flooding, forum spamming, and extraordinary hostility towards forum moderators, in addition to this case.

Dracon was probably the last person we'd suspect to pull something like this; in recent months he basically turned a 180, and has many of the experienced BYOND users showing a respect for him. (I am another story, but I haven't been related to this banning in any way, other than this thread.) However, he has once again turned about and basically "retrollified".

But, that's just what I'm inclined to believe. And, not to completely ignore all regards of you and Lexy trying to explain things, I am just that way. I have to be shown some proof as to the accusation's brought up against him are valid. Because, really...if I believed in Religion and God himself came down and told me the same things you had said earlier, I still would have followed the same path and request some hard cold, visual proof of it. So, no hard feelings? And as a side note: I do respect you and Lexy, but when I go into arguments I try to prove my point and defend my argument just as any one else would.

The problem is, the evidence, though convincing to me, can just as easily be contested as their word of mouth can be. They lack screenshots, they lack AVI movies, they lack snapshots of the HTML pages... all they have is a single transcript of a pager conversation in plain text. I could just as easily write:

-->(8:15pm) Goku72: Hi, how are you?
<--(8:16pm) Goku72: [bleep] you! Who the [bleep] are you to contact me you [bleep]!

...And it would be my word against yours. Of course, I wouldn't do such a thing, because I don't believe in fabricating facts. I don't believe either Lexy or Lummox JR would either, but I can't speak for them (though I'm convinced that it is truth -- Dracon has a certain style to his ramblings, and I can't reproduce that style, so I'm almost certain that Lexy can't either).

If Lexy wants to post it here, that's her prerogative, but I figure that the evidence has already been used to create a final ruling. Even though the legal system doesn't apply here, if there's one thing about the legal system, it's faith in final judgement.

Goku72 wrote:

I admit, it's a little biased on my end, but as is on any one else' trying to prove a point for ones beliefs. I'm not too big on lengthy arguments. I'm more of get to the point type of guy. And, I didn't mean as in you not be intelligent. I was replying to Havenmaster's current posting on his petition. So, no direct meaning to impose harm upon your character. I was just stating that perhaps there's room for error?

If two people observed him up to no good on the pager, and a third via the hub listings showing who's logged into which games, then there's no room for error. The only possibility would be if the pager misreported the key, which it didn't. It couldn't.

Because, in my opinion...Dracon is just not capable of doing this. Not because he won't, but because he can't. He just doesn't understand how it would work to "fake out a hub". Maybe he does, and I don't know about it?

Dracon is a longtime forum regular, who's had ample opportunity to observe the few threads where this vulnerability was discussed. Even if he hadn't seen them, figuring out the vulnerability did not take genius--only the ability to wonder "What if?" That's why he wasn't the first to exploit it; it had been done before. So Dracon was more than capable of figuring it out, and probably was well aware of the vulnerability.

Surprisingly, you still don't seem to understand the attack yourself. Based on the way you talk about it, you've only gleaned a vague idea of what happened from the thread. I suppose that's good news, since it means trolls who might learn from this will have to be minimally observant. But since you don't even understand what happened, why are you going to such lengths to deny Dracon did it?

But, that's just what I'm inclined to believe.

And that's all you have to go on. That's the only basis for a defense.

And, not to completely ignore all regards of you and Lexy trying to explain things, I am just that way. I have to be shown some proof as to the accusation's brought up against him are valid.

But since it wasn't your job to decide whether he should be banned from BYOND, no one needs to prove anything to you. No one's forcing you to believe this. But making such a stink about it when you can't even get the facts straight is pointless.

Because, really...if I believed in Religion and God himself came down and told me the same things you had said earlier, I still would have followed the same path and request some hard cold, visual proof of it.

Anything "visual" I could show you could as easily be manufactured by me, if I was the type of person who would do so. If you're not going to take God at his word, then anything you could be shown would be meaningless. Likewise, anything I showed you--had I bothered to preserve anything, because at the time I got his page I knew nothing was amiss--wouldn't convince you.

So, no hard feelings? And as a side note: I do respect you and Lexy, but when I go into arguments I try to prove my point and defend my argument just as any one else would.

But you have no point, and you have no argument. All you have is that, well, you "know" Dracon couldn't have done it. You can't even coherently explain the "it" he's accused of doing. But even so, there are no facts that back you up; you're just going on perceived character. To have a point to argue, you'd actually have to have some foundation for it--like an alibi. But without that, you simply refused to give up on your gut instinct and instead you had to construct a couple of strawman arguments: 1) Dracon must have been conspired against for being a DBZ fan, and 2) the people who witnessed what he did only said what they did because of power.

And as much as you want to say hey, you weren't insulting anybody, you were. Because there's no way anyone even half awake could make a mistake about who was paging them or who they saw in the user list (particularly with a well-known name like Dracon), which means the only way the testimony could be wrong would be if we all lied. You insinuated as much when you--more than once--said we all had to have rather despicable motives for saying what we did.

Nobody's even asking you to believe Dracon is guilty. I mean, gads, he is, beyond all doubt, but do feel free to believe what you like. It's your prerogative. But to go waving your arms about and screaming about conspiracies won't help him, it won't help you, and it won't help this community. Dracon's ban was for a reason; you don't understand or believe those reasons, and that's okay, but that means that protesting it is pointless. So why go slandering people and going through the whole petition thing if you don't truly know what's happening? If what you've already heard isn't enough to inform you, let alone convince you, more detail wouldn't help.

Lummox JR

Vakir wrote:

First of all,

Realize this, more than 50% of the BYOND community plays Dragonball Z type games. Now, if it weren't for Dracon, BYOND wouldn't be as popular. There wouldn't be a outburst of Dragonball Z games as there are now.

Dracon is in no way responsable for the DBZ games on BYOND. The only thing he is partially responsable for is the amount of DBZ games that are built off the Zeta source.
There would still be the same amount of DBZ games, they would just be made from something else.

Now, unban Dracon. I know your doing something amazing as such as improving BYOND (I love this service very very much). But, unban him he deserves a another chance.

The fact is that Dracon has had chance after chance, and each time he gets a chance he blows it. He appeared to be going well this time, but then for what ever reason he decided to throw it away with a typical Dracon prank.
He really doesn't deserve another chance because his done nothing but prove that he will eventually mess up again.
I would be all for unbanning him if I thought that he wouldn't do anything like it again, since he is looked up to by a lot of the problem DBZers at BYOND. Him setting a good example could help clean up BYOND. However his proven that he will set a bad example.

8. Kujila ...yeah. He's funny at times... then again, he's mostly annoying though... on second thought, keep him banned.

GOSH DANG! you ripped Zeta and you want him banned? You suck majorly. You should be banned, in fact, all of rip Zeta should be banned because he created it and their allowed on? really cmon' DanTom, BYOND wouldn't be half as popular if it wasn't for Dracon. I'll never buy something from the BYOND store again. And to think all those dimes I bought. :\

I don't like that Maniack has to be banned, but it's exactly that, he has to be.

<History Lession>
Take a trip back to when the DBZ wave first started, there were tons of DBZ games better then Zeta. I'm talking in the days when client.screen was just a gleam in Tom's eye.
If anything Zeta killed the chances of a good DBZ game coming out. Before source codes got leaked there was actually good DBZ games on BYOND (They weren't great, but they whip the DBZ games we have now).
However it wasn't solely Zeta's fualt, since BYONDimes + greed played a major part in the Zeta source doing what it did (Several source codes had been released for DBZ games before Zeta).
</History Lession>
Basically if Zeta didn't exist these Zeta rips would either be games made from another DBZ games source code, or just be chat rooms with attack verbs.

Goku72 wrote:

<font size=1>"The Petition against Dracon's banishment from BYOND Petition to Dantom was created by Society Against Dantom's Dogs And Mates (SADDAM)"</font>

Some may not care, but Chris or Dracon as many of you know him as has been banned from BYOND for what we know not. For those of you who care, please sign this online petition that we'll be sending to Dantom in hopes of unbanishment.

http://www.petitiononline.com/homsar/petition.html

A petition wouldn't help his case at all -- His actions were confirmed, and Dantom took action against him. If someone had killed a member of your family and got put in prison, would you think it was fair if he got released just because a lot of people signed a petition?

Dantom will make the actions that they wish. Other people's opinions of what THEY think is wrong, will not help. Dantom thinks it's wrong, so Dantom does what they can to prevent it.

~>Volte

GOSH DANG! you ripped Zeta and you want him banned? You suck majorly. You should be banned, in fact, all of rip Zeta should be banned because he created it and their allowed on?

The irony of the situation is, did Dracon get permission from funmation(or whoever does DBZ) to do Zeta?

really cmon' DanTom, BYOND wouldn't be half as popular if it wasn't for Dracon.

Considering what type of crowd Zeta brought I don't want that half :P.