EmpirezTeam wrote:

Transexuals: Another great example of hypocrisy I see from our society is this is acceptable:

The only thing I have in response to this is, "check your privilege."

A person's gender identity and what gender they're born is not a choice. Neither is being self-conscious about your body and having plastic surgery.

You know, the only people who call plastic surgery fake are people who don't have self-esteem problems about their body. On the same foot, the only people claiming that transgendered people are fake are people who aren't don't suffer from gender identity disorder.

People's brains and bodies are totally separate entities and have no bearing on either one of each other. Just because it's your body, doesn't mean your brain approves of it. You're just lucky to not have this problem. There are some of us out there who find your lack of awareness of the actual issues rather offensive.

Also, on the note of children, if you actually did research on the topic, children under the age of 18 cannot, under any circumstances, have any sexual reassignment surgeries performed. Period. Gender Identity Disorder doesn't have an age discrimination. People can know as early as 5 or as late as 55, it develops differently and is as much their fault as being gay or anything. The most a child can have done is, once they reach puberty, is hormone replacement therapy. No surgeries until they're legal.

I would have hoped someone like you would understand how people function, at least. And yes, I am speaking from the other side of the issue, thanks.

Ter13 wrote:

It's not illegal to perform SRS on minors (in the US). It's just not covered by any insurance carrier and most surgeons agree that it's unethical.

I have never heard of a minor getting any kind of medical professional consent for SRS.

I have never heard of a minor getting any kind of medical professional consent for SRS.

It happens all the time. Doctors perform SRS on infants that are born inter-sexed. What you are talking about is elective SRS. Neither are illegal because no statute explicitly outlaws it.

This topic has covered everything o-o

And I agree with you on all of these issues. Double standards like this are a plague and I would never in my life tell someone that they can't be who they are on the inside, whether that's changing your gender or undergoing plastic surgery to look different. As long as it makes them happy, there's no point in arguing. The haters aren't the ones getting the face lift, so why do they care?

That's all I'm saying.

And I have done my research, obviously. I've done research on it for almost 5 years ever since I came to terms with my own gender identity.

Kaitlyn Jenner is no more a freak than Toby Sheldon and nobody deserves to be treated like that. That's the point of LGBT equal rights. Not only legally, but culturally too.

I only took offense because it seemed as though you were blaming the transgender community for outsiders treating plastic surgery patients like crap. It's no one's fault except for those throwing out the hurtful comments.

But, we're definitely getting off topic here. This thread isn't a soap box for a trans debate. It's a simple rejoice in a legislation that should never have had to be made in the first place.

@ET:

I'm queer. I'm also pro trans-tolerance (I don't think acceptance should be obligated for anything or anyone.). I myself choose to be trans-accepting, but I can't make anyone else agree with that. Trying to socially reinforce tolerance is alright, though.

I agree with everything you are saying, actually with regard to the plastic surgery/SRS thing. Despite me being trans-friendly and technically falling into the trans spectrum myself.

The transgender movement is fundamentally based on anti-scientific ideas, and there's a misconception that people can BECOME female. However, that misconception isn't among the transgender movement. It's predominantly from outside of it.

The trouble is that morphologically having a Y chromosome changes your body in a lot of ways. From birth, if that Y chromosome activates, you are going to be sexually male.

The real question is whether gender roles and boundaries are arbitrary. I think it's undeniable that yes, gender is a social construct. Gender Dysphoria is poorly named, if you ask me. Gender Dysphoria refers to mental dissonance between your body's shape and appearance and your self-image. Gender Dysphoria is two separate things masquerading as one: Tendencies of self harm related to a psychological inability to accept that your body is an extension of your self, and the rejection of imposed social roles based on gender.

One is a serious condition. One is a political view.

We have to get over this idea that gender and sex are the same thing, because they simply are not. We need to move toward a society where nobody is "transgender". We need to get over the idea that behavior and dress infer sex, because they simply don't. Sex informs behavior and morphology, but sex isn't a binary switch. It's an ongoing developmental process.

The transgender community is actually throwing on with binary gender roles, not fighting against them. Further, SRS is primitive and... Well, frankly something that should only be done in extreme cases of gender Dysphoria. It has been shown to help alleviate tendencies toward self-harm and mutilation, but ideally we need to teach people that their bodies cannot be fully controlled and don't determine how we should be treated except as a matter of health or physicality.

If you want to accept that SRS and hormone modification is okay to elect to do, yes, you need to accept trans-racialism and other elective plastic surgeries based on the want to present yourself in a certain manner.

If you want to reject trans-racialism and trans-specism, you have to find an objective normative reason why these things are any different than gender identities.

The only way to accept transgenderism and deny trans-racialism and trans-specism is to state that gender is NOT arbitrary, but rather a consequence of morphology. You have to deny that gender roles are arbitrary and you have to normalize binary gender roles being impressed upon people for a specific, objective reason.

Either we all put up and shut up with whatever everyone does to their bodies and indentities, or you draw an arbitrary line in the sand and you lose the right to criticize those who draw the line on what you believe is acceptable.

You can't get from scientific facts to morality. You can't get from morality to scientific facts. Morality is a collective, arbitrary social phenomena. For that matter, we can't even argue whether utilitarian or deontological moralities are the way we should go collectively. If you measure based on the most good for the most people, that means that we have to choose utilitarianism, which can be used to justify horrible atrocities, and if we choose deontological moral systems, we can never find any kind of a basis for argument on anything.

I'm involved with my local trans community, but there are major problems in our current ideology. Empirez isn't wrong to point out a lot of this.

So many open minded people, it's crazy Q.Q I'm not alone

Zecronious wrote:

What if I had two personalities, one male and one female and they wanted to marry each other?

Inb4 that'd make you Kanye.

Fabulous, gay horses.

Fabulous, gay, newly wed horses.