'Block The Issue!'

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Aug 2 2015, 8:52 pm
In response to Ter13
Ter13 wrote:
If the moderators don't think a permanent ban on that user will see them out of the community (That's why we don't hand out permanent bans that often, is because people always come back on new keys just to cause more drama out of spite.), the community needs to make an active effort to be aware of the pagerban feature's new function of hiding a user's posts and taking the responsibility of ensuring that a user is shunned rather than fed fuel to continue to make this place unbearable.

They basically give you a decent block function. If you can't see it, it's not there, until it decides to make another key to either be useful or piss off other people (again).
Aug 2 2015, 9:42 pm (Edited on Aug 2 2015, 10:09 pm)
This whole threads purpose is arguably to perform a witch hunt on Lugia.

Yeah. No. This isn't about his views. This is about his behavior. If we were asking for his removal because of controversial views, it'd be a witch hunt. But this is largely because the user is doing what he's doing knowingly to incite problems in the community. He's admitted as much.

I really don't want this to seem like I'm arguing with you, Ichiro. I'm disagreeing with your perspective, but I recognize that your perspective is a valid perspective. I just don't think you are seeing the picture that I am. We've got different approaches.

Part of the issue with the users I've taken issue with should be taken in the full context of their actions and statements. I implore you to look into these users and not just take their word for it, Ichiro. One of them is trying to approach you on your shoutbox right now. Johnny isn't a new key. He's an old user, and he shares a lot of patterns with GamerMania/Longcat666. The same rhetoric, the same attitude issue, etc. Look at these users in context. Don't take how they act toward you at face value.
Aug 2 2015, 9:45 pm
In response to IchiroKeisuke
This whole thread serves the purpose of taking the 'power' out from under those users that feed off of the negativity. Lugia has broken the rules, though will deny such thoroughly. Const anent in arguments over rather he's being a jerk or 'stating facts' or 'stating opinions', when he's stating those 'facts' and opinions like a jerk.

We're all jerks from time to time; I was recently(as I, myself perceive) a bit of a jerk on a couple of topics, though I feel it wasn't entirely on me. That's not the point of Lugia's specific case. The entire reason he's here is to be negative. He's openly admitted this, saying he's only here to 'advertise' his 'unity project', but(in the mean time), to be negative among the community, down-putting BYOND, it's software, and the people in it that are positive towards it.
Aug 2 2015, 10:29 pm
Lugia has broken the rules

You should be asking moderation why they haven't enforced the rules and perhaps submitting clear evidence of rule breaking.

Asking people to ignore someone is bad from an ethical and practical standpoint.

First off, it raises practical concerns because newcomers or outsiders will still get the impression of a bad community - because he's still visible to those parties.

It also raises ethical concerns, because if you or ter or anyone else can determine who will be "shunned" it would be like a group of kids bullying the uncool kid of the playground.

You said he broke the rules, if this is true - moderation is to blame for not handing down a deterrent.

Simply put, I am not defending lugia, I am disagreeing with your approach to this matter.
Aug 2 2015, 10:43 pm
It also raises ethical concerns, because if you or ter or anyone else can determine who will be "shunned" it would be like a group of kids bullying the uncool kid of the playground.

This is a definite concern. But I'm not asking people to do this because of who I am. I'm asking people to do this based on this user's behavior.

I don't like the notion being bandied about that I'm listened to and respected for who I am. I'd rather people read what I have to say and the rationality behind it.

I just find it peculiar that your argument is that we're bullying Lugia by asking him to improve or leave. By the same argument, all moderation is bullying.

I'm not going to continue this discussion. Lugia's post history makes my point for me. There's no denying that the user is completely beyond the point where action is warranted yet nothing has been done.

We're fed up with it. That's all.
Aug 2 2015, 11:11 pm (Edited on Aug 2 2015, 11:44 pm)
In response to IchiroKeisuke
To be clear, we're not saying 'Block this user, effectively ban him from the community without banning him from the forum', we're saying 'Hey, we think this is a issue that has a solution, in blocking him'. We're not trying to force views on anyone, merely asking people who agree to help in the effort to make a better community. If Lugia suddenly turned around and treated people with the fairness he claims, instead of this un-entitled 'I am right because I stated facts, with no proof. You are wrong because I disagree with your proof, offer real proof' bit he has going; I'd be happy to unblock him, but we've tried(numerous times) to talk sense into the senseless madman, but it's either him trolling or him being the biggest [obscenity] waiting to be licked I've seen on here and that's just my personal input on the matter.
Aug 3 2015, 9:04 am
In response to Ter13
Ter13 wrote:
I just find it peculiar that your argument is that we're bullying Lugia by asking him to improve or leave. By the same argument, all moderation is bullying.

But your not a moderator (anymore) - so it's not official moderation.

You should place the task of enforcing community-wide bans with the moderators. If the moderators aren't reacting, your in the same boat I am in - where I find moderation to be a bit weak and strange in some cases. Still, this type of case is what the moderators are there for and they should be entrusted with this decision as well as all similar cases.

Overall, I find it very troubling that one or two users could determine who everyone will block. I'm saying that it's much, much better practice to have the moderators hand down deterrents.



Ok, this conversation has gone on long enough. I hope you at least considered what I am saying.

Happy hacking everyone.

Aug 3 2015, 9:30 am (Edited on Aug 3 2015, 9:41 am)
Ok, this conversation has gone on long enough. I hope you at least considered what I am saying.

I have. You've made a good case for the fact that we shouldn't be in a position to decide. I agree that the ultimate decision should be with the moderation, but it seems to me that the existing moderation agrees that this user is a problem. I'm asking the community to take responsibility for themselves and be aware of a problem that almost everyone agrees is worsening.

Also, you'll notice that JohnnyTheTolerantRedneck was in fact Gamermania/Longcat666. You'll also notice that There's this odd connection with permabanned users where they have all been associated with this small clique of users.

I'd like to remind everyone of this conversation in which the explicit goal of derailing and degrading the community was admitted by Johnny/Gamermania/Longcat:

http://i.imgur.com/sSAVdXG.png

Isn't it interesting that Lugia has been directly involved with Gamermania/Longcat/Johnny and this same little clique of users who have been inciting problems for a long while? I've got skills for pattern recognition and identification of motive that served me well during my time in the military as a crypto-linguist. I'm quite good at recognizing patterns and dissecting language and rhetoric to synthesize a larger picture of what's going on. These skills are proven and tested. I see what's going on because I wait to make judgements until I have enough information to go on. Most people think that I'm too quick to judge, and that may be arguable, however, my track record of being able to find these users and their connections to one another is pretty damn good.

This isn't just a matter of "Ter doesn't like someone.". This is an issue of a persistent and abusive core of users that are actively trying to feed any and all anti-social activity here for the explicit stated purpose of degrading and destroying this community.

There's a lot more context going on behind the scenes than you are aware of Ichiro. We just can't talk about it because of asinine forum rules that actually allow these users to try to claim any and all criticism of their actions and statements is personal.

You aren't fully aware of who and what you are aiding, Ichiro.
Aug 3 2015, 10:12 am
QueenOfUranus wrote:
GamerMania here. No, Johnny is an entirely new member of our group. :) The only reason that chat log exists was because you apparently left the community, so I had to have a little fun.

I still haven't heard back from you about those 4 simple questions, but keep in mind that the only reason you have to play cool kid on the internet is because your ex girlfriend beat you and abused you in other ways.

You also edit your log to hide the fact that it took you so long to find out it was me. :D

Q.E.D.
Aug 3 2015, 10:16 am
Thank you Jesus
Aug 3 2015, 10:20 am
In response to Ter13
Ter13 wrote:
This isn't just a matter of "Ter doesn't like someone.". This is an issue of a persistent and abusive core of users that are actively trying to feed any and all anti-social activity here for the explicit stated purpose of degrading and destroying this community.

There's a lot more context going on behind the scenes than you are aware of Ichiro. We just can't talk about it because of asinine forum rules that actually allow these users to try to claim any and all criticism of their actions and statements is personal.

You aren't fully aware of who and what you are aiding, Ichiro.

For the record:
I'm not aiding anyone or anything. I'm stating my opinion as respectfully as I can.

I'm not connected to any of those users. I have a neutral opinion of pretty much everyone here. I'm just arguing that it's better to have moderators handle this than relying on community-wide personal bans.

Aug 3 2015, 10:29 am
I'm not connected to any of those users at all. I have a neutral opinion of pretty much everyone here. I'm just arguing that it's better to have moderators handle this than relying on community-wide personal bans.

I don't think you are, and I'm not accusing you of being affected by one of them. I'm just trying to point out that the effect of not allowing community members to point out the problem respectfully and openly indirectly aids these users in extending their tendrils to actual beneficial and helpful users.

Lige and I both resigned as moderators because of Tom's leniency on these exact users. I argued that these users were going to keep doing this and making the situation worse. Tom basically asked us to allow these users to make new keys, continue their shenanigans, and wait for them to prove that they hadn't changed.

The problem with that is that when we'd do that, these users would take other users with them and convince good users that we, not this little clique were the problem. Galactic Soldier, Falacy, Gamermania, Lugia, Johnny, Developous... They are all connected not just in association, but action.

The fact that after mentioning this association, it's been admitted that the clique is yet again behind all of this crap that's going on only demonstrates the validity of my point and the fact that Lige and I were actively trying to act in the best interests of this community despite being harassed for it and browbeaten by Tom and more recently you.

I'm not saying that you are knowingly aiding these people, just that you don't realize how widespread and problematic these users are. They manipulate our users that have actual mental disorders (easily half of our community) into acting out and getting themselves banned. Their actions have been steadily chipping away at all efforts to make this place better.

We need to deal with this problem rather than letting these users fester behind the scenes and letting it persist because these users are knowingly taking advantage of loopholes and inconsistency in the administration.

I mean, am I making any sense at all here, Ichiro? Surely the last few minutes and the recent admission by Gamermania of involvement with Lugia and the context I provided has demonstrated that I'm not just bullying a user because I don't like them, right?
Aug 3 2015, 10:41 am
In response to Ter13
browbeaten by Tom and more recently you.

I can't even tell what you mean by this anymore.

I mean, am I making any sense at all here, Ichiro?

Somewhat, I can't tell why your so fixated on telling me I am mistreating you.

Lige and I both resigned as moderators because of Tom's leniency on these exact users. I argued that these users were going to keep doing this and making the situation worse. Tom basically asked us to allow these users to make new keys, continue their shenanigans, and wait for them to prove that they hadn't changed.

When we first talked we had a discussion about this very topic, I agreed that tom was too lenient then and I still hold that same opinion.

I mean come on, I've been trying to get people to put more faith in the moderation, to improve the rules and to strengthen moderation to tackle these very instances.

In my opinion it's better to have a moderator hand down a deterrent than to ask everyone to personally ban someone, I have no problem with you publicly saying someone is doing bad things and you disagree with them.


My only problem is that you are effectively asking me and everyone who reads your post to ban him.

I saw this, here:
Simply put, I'm asking the community to add this user to their pagerban list if you regularly post here.

That's my only issue with you or with this thread. But also, if you have any problems specifically with me I would hope you would just message me so we can resolve them privately.
Aug 3 2015, 10:48 am
Realtalk: If the mods would just delete problematic threads such as this one instead of posting and contributing to the problem, the drama would be halved overnight.

Come on, guys.
Aug 3 2015, 10:50 am
After sending me a private message where he made false claims and continued to say he was perfect and better than everyone he made it to my block list... Bad trolling if ur gonna act superior act like royalty not someone who comes off as inferior trash.
Aug 3 2015, 10:56 am
I can't even tell what you mean by this anymore.

Fair enough. I'll be more diplomatic with my terminology in the future.

That's my only issue with you or with this thread. But also, if you have any problems specifically with me I would hope you would just message me so we can resolve them privately.

I will.

My only problem is that you are effectively asking me and everyone who reads your post to ban him.

Duly noted.

In my opinion it's better to have a moderator hand down a deterrent than to ask everyone to personally ban someone, I have no problem with you publicly saying someone is doing bad things and you disagree with them.

I agree. It would be better, but moderation of problem users has been castrated by the perceived impossibility of dealing with problem users consistently.
Aug 3 2015, 11:16 am
In response to IchiroKeisuke
IchiroKeisuke wrote:
Somewhat, I can't tell why your so fixated on telling me I am mistreating you.

Ter can speak for himself, but based on observation it seems you keep circling back to why the community dealing with a troublesome user is a bad thing. If someone is harassing you and your friends, are you really going to stand there and take it because someone of authority -might- intervene one day?

It should be worth noting that neither Ter nor any other community member can force you or anyone else to block any user. If you don't want to, you don't have to. I'd understand your issue with the situation had Ter and the N.M.O ( New Moderation Order ) had the ability to forcibly add someone to your blacklist.

I mean come on, I've been trying to get people to put more faith in the moderation

Nadrew is probably the only active moderator I'd have faith in when it comes to responsibilities. The rest either don't care enough to take action or are afraid of dealing with an upset user ( both reasons being stated by a few of our current moderators ).

to improve the rules

Lummox doesn't want to improve the rules, he prefers guidelines ( mentioned this somewhere, I didn't want to dig for it ). With set rules, punishment is equivalent and it makes things a bit more complicated on the PR front:

User A might have had a bad day or maybe they didn't notice the tone of their comment, yet they'd be banned for X days because User B, who constantly berates others, was banned for the same reason and their punishment must be equal. Not really "fair".

Having guidelines that are flexible requires moderators to make a judgement call. However, our moderators are either too few, too inactive, too lazy or have mistaken leniency with "give up". With our current situation, it's more like:

User B, who constantly berates others, has had nothing happen to him -- warning nor ban ( temporary or permanent ). User's C through F eventually follow ( give it time, this part happens literally annually ).

In my opinion it's better to have a moderator hand down a deterrent than to ask everyone to personally ban someone, I have no problem with you publicly saying someone is doing bad things and you disagree with them.

I completely agree with you here. Sadly, that won't happen any time soon. Once it does happen, it'll be too late, unless it's Nadrew who saves the day, because the few users who do give a damn about BYOND and it's community will already be fed up.
Aug 3 2015, 11:35 am
@Lige: Better said than I. I've frequently disagreed with Nadrew, but he's right more often than he's wrong. He's a good moderator and while his actions can seem heavy-handed, he's really good at dealing with problem users and simply not being enveloped by the shitstorm that ensues every single time you waggle a finger at a user here.

Nadrew genuinely cares for this community and has taken more shit than just about anyone else for it. Has he always been right? No. Has he been acting consistently for the betterment of the community for almost a decade? I'd argue yes.

Help us Nadrew, you are our only hope.
Aug 3 2015, 11:39 am
In response to Lige
the community dealing with a troublesome user is a bad thing

To me it is. Moderation is here for that very purpose and they should be the ones to take action on such scale.

Lummox doesn't want to improve the rules, he prefers guidelines

I know this all too well..

But what is a guideline?

According to google, it's basically a rule.

Guideline:
a general rule, principle, or piece of advice.

User A might have had a bad day or maybe they didn't notice the tone of their comment, yet they'd be banned for X days because User B, who constantly berates others, was banned for the same reason and their punishment must be equal. Not really "fair"

My personal point of view on this issue is that moderators should be able to waver punishments. A flexible approach is good. However, repeated rule breaks - as Ter mentioned with that group of users, should be dealt with firmly at the discretion of moderation.

I personally think moderation is to lenient when it comes to what you described in your final example and the group ter mentioned.

"The tree is solid and firm, but even the tree bends in the wake of the wind so as not to snap."

This is just my opinion.
Aug 3 2015, 11:41 am
I guess now is a fair time to say "we'll keep an eye on things"? :P Generally we'd like people to be respectful in how they deliver their opinions, and likewise we like people to be respectful of the opinions of othedrs. That doesn't mean people have to agree, or even feel the other viewpoint is even sane, but we do require a bit of decorum.

If OP doesn't mind, I'll lock this topic soon, as I think it's run to it's natural conclusion mostly.
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