Oct 11 2004, 9:20 pm
In response to GokuDBZ3128
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Jon Snow
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so you'd rather have them actually steal a car, preferably yours and then have the cops rope him the old fashion way?
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My friend Isaac wrote this:
Standardized Stasis Balance unbroken. Secrets unspoken. Evolve, Into a world unrecognized. Whereupon, Reason lacks opposition. A delusional world, Where Society and culture, Exist universal. Purity presides Immoral prides. Consequently offsetting, The symmetry of mankind. Forced compliance, Upon An unfamiliar ideal. An ideal that Pursues, Eccentric obsoletion. Deviants, Ostracized. By a society Teeming amidst, Its' own materialistic filth. Innocent villain, Fastens hands About noose. Supposed virgin, Lies bare, Exposing truth. | |
Jon Snow, you do not seem to understand the concept here....
Those people were minding their own business at first. They would never be in jail if those cops never put that car there. That's like leaving a thousand dollars in the street, somebody is going to take it. Cops should be looking to protect people, not set people up. That is what is wrong with out society today. People are too lazy. | |
Actually, those people would never be in jail if they didn't try to break the law in the first place. Setting a scenario up like that may not seem right, but the people trying to steal the car are far from guiltless.
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I can't even believe GokuDBZ3128 about his posts, wow...
He sounds like a typical cop hater. Cops set that car up, for people to steal, to see the bad eggs walk over and steal the car.. Let me explain something, just because you CAN do something dosen't mean you should. Those people were minding their own buisness until they decided to get into a car that wasn't theirs and STEAL it. Last time I checked, stealing was wrong. At my old job, before I quit, they had a shipment of new laptop P4 computers. They just kept them in their crappy boxes in the back stock room. Nothing else. There was no cameras in the entire building, no nothing. And being one of the people who did stock, I had a set of keys for the whole building. And yes, I did think about taking them, but I didn't (even though it would be easy.). Why you ask, it wasn't mine, it wasn't right. I wish cops would pull more stunts like that, and bust these people ahead of time, before they do real damage. Just so you know, my moms blazer was stolen this year, because my stupid sister, turned the car on, and then went back inside of a building to get her purse. It was only like 5 or 6 feet away. Someone saw the car, decuded to just take it, and took it for a joy ride. 3 days later they found the car in a ditch a state and a half away, it wasn't totaled, but its the idea of the thing. If it isn't yours, keep your damn hands off it! EDIT: And finding money on the side walk is much more different then finding a unlocked car. People loose money and wallets and stuff, but people don't just loose a car like it fell out of their pocket. | |
Eh, the old van trick is nothing new and an easy way to pick up dumb thieves. I have a much bigger problem with prostitution stings, as 1)I feel the effort would be better spent going after other criminals (especially violent criminals and thieves) and 2)it just seems like an easy way to pick up some fine revenue rather than hold down crime and 3) there is a disturbing trend towards corruption and abuse associated with departments heavilly involved in anti-prostitution activities (San Francisco in the late 90's, for example, has had numerous compliants from prostitutes and the community over police abuse in this area).
I feel there are similar problems in seeking out drug users rather than suppliers and dealers- but I have hijacked this thread enough so..... | |
Shades, do you really think it is right to leave an unlocked car in a bad area knowing somebody is going to steal it just so you can arrest them? They should be out there arresting murderers, kidnappers, ETC. but no, they decide to put an unlocked car in a bad area to be stolen. What if that guy had no drivers license, and he decided to take a 10 second joy ride and hit a guy walking down the sidewalk? It's a stupid thing to do.
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Shades, do you really think it is right to leave an unlocked car in a bad area knowing somebody is going to steal it just so you can arrest them? If you are going to commit a crime especially one involving that much money you'd be largely stupid and/or naive to not consider the risks and stakes involved. The whole point of the law system is to make the risks involved high enough such that it scares people so they don't do something that they should know is evidently wrong in the first place. If it's a bad area obviously there are people who think they can escape these kinds of consequences and its better they get caught before they actually steal someones expensive property. They should be out there arresting murderers, kidnappers, ETC. Of course most of the time they can't be doing this since they don't have all the evidence needed to pursue further otherwise they would be. but no, they decide to put an unlocked car in a bad area to be stolen. What if that guy had no drivers license, and he decided to take a 10 second joy ride and hit a guy walking down the sidewalk? It's a stupid thing to do. Of course odds are this person would do this with a car that wasn't a setup. Atleast in the case of the set up the cops went to some length to make sure that it is a control situation so the fatal joyride is less likely to happen. | |
GokuDBZ3128 wrote:
Shades, do you really think it is right to leave an unlocked car in a bad area knowing somebody is going to steal it just so you can arrest them? Well, if there's a tiger on the loose, it makes sense to put out a tiger trap. A car, even an old junker, costs a LOT of money. That money represents a tremendous amount of work. A car thief is not going to focus only on cars the police have left out to tempt him. If a bait car doesn't get him, the thief will just steal a different car, or many different cars, until he's stopped. Your average car thief isn't going for a ten-second joyride; he's going to sell it to a chop shop. Each of those stolen cars belongs to someone who actually had to work to obtain that car. And what's the thief going to do with the money he gets for the car? Spend it on a leather-bound set of the collected works of Dostoevsky? Donate it to the Arthritis Foundation? Sponsor a hungry child in the Dominican Republic? Nope. 95 out of 100 of these guys are going right to the nearest crack house or heroin dealer (or liquor store or strip club or whatever other wild times are available in the local market), and if you don't believe that, you're only kidding yourself. If you really want to root for car thieves, be glad at how much more lenient the law is than it used to be. In olden days, stealing someone's horse was a hanging offense. | |
Although I agree almost completely with your view, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a bit:
"Well, if there's a tiger on the loose, it makes sense to put out a tiger trap." That's almost entirely unrelated. If there is a specific tiger that you know about and feel is a danger to society in it's current state, having already commited a crime, it would make sense to set a trap. Some of these men have never commited a crime in their lives and were only desperately poor, needing a boost to survive. "A car, even an old junker, costs a LOT of money. That money represents a tremendous amount of work. A car thief is not going to focus only on cars the police have left out to tempt him. If a bait car doesn't get him, the thief will just steal a different car, or many different cars, until he's stopped. Your average car thief isn't going for a ten-second joyride; he's going to sell it to a chop shop. Each of those stolen cars belongs to someone who actually had to work to obtain that car." The bold statement that all cars cost a lot of money is not always true. You're overlooking the possiblity that that particular car could have been stolen in the first place, so your closing statement of that paragraph could also be incorrect. The inside is mostly irreuptable, however many people have a criminal nature that is unshakable; he may not want to take it to a chop shop, he's just unable to think it through. "And what's the thief going to do with the money he gets for the car? Spend it on a leather-bound set of the collected works of Dostoevsky? Donate it to the Arthritis Foundation? Sponsor a hungry child in the Dominican Republic? Nope. 95 out of 100 of these guys are going right to the nearest crack house or heroin dealer, and if you don't believe that, you're only kidding yourself." Once again, a pretty bold statement. Almost every person who steals a car does so for one of the following reasons:
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First, just wanted to thank you guys for not flaming and for responding in a mature manner.
Well, I agree with all three of you, but, I do not think you are getting exactly what I am saying. Gughunter, when you said if a tiger was on the loose, then they would setup a trap to catch him. That is true. But, they did not know a car thief was on the loose, they just setup a car with the key in the ignition. When I said a ten second joyride, well, I said that because after 10 seconds of driving the engine goes out. The thing is, the people in the area where they setup that car grew up around thiefs, criminals, ETC. and some of them do not know the difference between moral and immoral. They may think stealing a car and selling it to provide food, water, electricity ETC. for their family is a moral decision, only because it is what they have been witnessing their entire lives. So, when they get in trouble for it, they sometimes get confused. Most of these peoples parents either abandoned them or never supported them, so, they had no way of getting jobs, education, ETC. so the only way to survive out their is to steal and sell. That is the only way for them. The cops knew what they were in for. You cannot just provoke someone to steal a car. | |
The thing is, the people in the area where they setup that car grew up around thiefs, criminals, ETC. and some of them do not know the difference between moral and immoral. They may think stealing a car and selling it to provide food, water, electricity ETC. for their family is a moral decision, only because it is what they have been witnessing their entire lives. So, when they get in trouble for it, they sometimes get confused. Most of these peoples parents either abandoned them or never supported them, so, they had no way of getting jobs, education, ETC. so the only way to survive out their is to steal and sell. That is the only way for them. The cops knew what they were in for. You cannot just provoke someone to steal a car. No way in hell does someone think that it's moral to steal a car. They might think the ends justify the means, but if they have even a shred of humanity in them, they'll feel terrible about it. Think of soldiers, for example. There are soldiers out there who will gun down a terrorist and laugh and get a cheap thrill. Those soldiers are mentally ill. The vast majority of soldiers serve because they want to uphold the ideals of their country, not because they want to murder; when they kill someone, the adrenaline takes over, but once the adrenaline vanishes, they come to the realisation that they just committed one of the greatest sins against nature there is, and they undoubtedly feel horrible. The only thing that helps them deal with it is the understanding that it was for the good of the country, that it was either him or the soldier, and that they've been conditioned enough that it doesn't hamper their combat effectiveness. In this case, no one's provoking anyone to steal a car. There aren't any signs saying "Steal this car, or else!" The car is simply there. They made the decision to take it. Personally, I think of the bait car program as one of the wisest programs available in the modern world. Crime is bad, and -- excepting the cops forcing someone to commit a crime in order to punish them for it -- anything to prevent crime is good. Entrapment is where you force someone to commit a crime by planting a suggestion... "Hey, I've come up with a plan to rob this bank! But I need your help to pull it off." In this case, this is just a good old-fashioned method of catching the people who are pre-disposed towards crime in an effort to deter them from stealing other people's cars; if you get caught stealing a bait car, you're not likely to try stealing another car again. | |
If cops want to stop crime so bad, why do they enforce it by putting those cars out their? They want to stop crime, meanwhile, they provoke people. They should worry about the people who already have committed a crime.
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well, shouldn't people be morally responsible for themselves...if their morals were in the right place, no matter how bad their situation is, they wouldn't steal the car. Stealing is wrong, no matter which way you cut it. I get tired of people who are unable to take responsibility for their actions.
Excuses, that's all we hear anymore, and while I believe mercy is greater than punishment, I can't help but feel that in these two instances when these invdividuals were arrested they rightly deserved what happened. Don't Steal. Obey this, and nothing bad will happen to you. If you do, you run the risk and you have no one but to blame but yourself. *sigh* We're not talking about a piece of bread here, these people weren't starving to death and what was stolen was not out of necessity but greed. Anyways....They deserved it. | |
^This is often my philosophy. And like yourself, I've done non-profit work to help various groups of people. Such as volunteering for a few months in a nursing home, or mission trips, etc. I do not mind helping those who need help. I mind the ignorant, selfish, masses who try to put everyone in boxes, and if they don't fit, or if they don't understand the individual, they are shunned, murdered, beaten, cursed, etc.
People are idiots. There is no way around it. Even the founding fathers of united states of america knew this, that's why they set up a republic instead of a pure democracy, because though they treasured freedom, they knew man's social weakness to go with the majority would ultimatly destroy the country. Point in check, people are rude everywhere, only moreso in some places, and less in others. I pity them, and at times I hate them. It is a paradox, to want to help them and yet to be hindered by your anger against them. | |
Even though I am 16 years old (I will be 17 in May) some people still take me for a young kid (even though I sort of am) and think they can say/do whatever they want to me. Such as if I am at an adult part (even though it is sort of a family party) and a friend of a family member who I do not know is there, and they try to take advantage of me like going through me at the buffet line or something. Well, since I am pretty damn big and all, I stop taking this bullcrap years ago.
When someone does this to me I usually scare the crap out of them some way or another. Well, not scaring persay, more like intimidating. Some guy pushed me out of the way to get to the line and I was like "Yo, ass, watch where your friggin' going." If he is like "Excuse me? I am an adult how dare you." Or something like that I'm like "I don't give a crap if you were the damn president, don't ever push me again, got it?" I do stuff like that, I actually find it fun. Dunno' why, maybe cause I'm big and all. But try it, it works. Don't be intimiaded! It's one of the worse things you can be! | |
HavenMaster wrote:
Although I agree almost completely with your view, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a bit: Then I shall play devil's opponent! That's almost entirely unrelated. If there is a specific tiger that you know about and feel is a danger to society in it's current state, having already commited a crime, it would make sense to set a trap. Some of these men have never commited a crime in their lives and were only desperately poor, needing a boost to survive. To extend the metaphor, I'd say the bait car scheme is more a case of knowing that there are a number of tigers out there -- as evinced by a large number of reported tiger attacks in the past year -- but not knowing about any one of them specifically. No doubt there will be instances of people who have never stolen something before, who happen to make a bad choice as their first target. Or, more sadly, there will be people who would normally abhor the thought of stealing but who are driven to a single act (or what they expect to be a single act) by drastic circumstances. Exceptions like that are not only possible but inevitable when you're dealing with a large population. In those cases, though, the law allows (or should allow) for varying or suspended penalties based on the facts of the case, just as premeditated murder is judged differently than killing in self-defense. The bold statement that all cars cost a lot of money is not always true. You're overlooking the possiblity that that particular car could have been stolen in the first place, so your closing statement of that paragraph could also be incorrect. Aw, now you're just splitting hairs. :) Once again, a pretty bold statement. Almost every person who steals a car does so for one of the following reasons:
My 95% figure for cash-for-vice was probably over the top, granted. But except in the case of mental disabilities -- whether simple youthful naivete, retardation, or actual insanity -- all of these motives indicate, at least to some extent, a person who is a de facto danger to society. He is essentially claiming a right for himself that he would not willingly grant to others. (In this case, too, there could and would be exceptions, depending on how the person frames the moral question and how he would actually act if the roles were reversed -- but I believe they would be exceptions, nowhere close to the general rule.) As a side note, I'd suggest that between government welfare and private charity, it is really unnecessary for anyone in twenty-first-century America to go hungry. The people who need help may not be aware of the avenues available to them, and making them aware of their options is of course a worthy object regardless of its potential impact on car theft statistics, but it's still a separate question -- though it could certainly play a part in the variable penalties I mentioned above. I don't think that the point of the post was to say that car thieves shouldn't be punished, but that the police had no business provoking them. I'm sure it didn't come across in my earlier post, but I do sympathize with the anti-baiting viewpoint. Whatever its merits, it is still a trick, and nobody likes to be the butt of a trick, especially when the consequences are more severe than momentary embarrassment. And there is certainly ample reason to be skeptical of state-sponsored trickery; the tactics that are used justly today to enforce just laws can be used unjustly tomorrow to enforce unjust laws. (Heck, there are already plenty of unjust laws being vigorously enforced.) I'm pretty confident, though, that the laws against grand theft auto are just, however much fun it may be in a video game, and that deciding to steal an unmarked bait car involves the same chain of judgments used to decide to steal someone's private property; so for now I'm inclined to support the bait car trick. | |
So, when they get in trouble for it, they sometimes get confused. Most of these peoples parents either abandoned them or never supported them, so, they had no way of getting jobs, education, ETC. so the only way to survive out their is to steal and sell. That is the only way for them. The cops knew what they were in for. You cannot just provoke someone to steal a car. I don't deny that there are people out there who, through no fault of their own, have not been taught even the most basic ideas of civilized behavior. But however blameless they may be, their behavior is a danger to everyone who does buy into the idea of civilization. The nature of civilization is that people have to assume responsibility for thinking about the effect their actions will have on others; that is what makes civilization preferable to a life in the wild. If car thieves can learn to function in a civilized society, that's certainly a much more lasting benefit than simply throwing them in prison for a few years. But reforming them, and locking them up, are both preferable to having car thieves running around and preying on citizens who do contribute to civilization. | |