This is a matter for the customer and Silk Games need to resolve. However, it does stand as a shining example of how important customer service is, even with problem clients.
As a business owner, I learned the 1/3 rule was applicable to clients. About 1/3 are good customers, helpful, polite, and actually willing to assist you. 1/3 are neither good nor bad, simply average. 1/3 are problem clients and need special attention. The key is to make sure the problem 1/3 don't cause you to alienate the other 2/3s. Handle that 1/3 well, and you very well may find that some become average or good customers! The rest simply have to be dealt with appropriately. Overeacting and yelling at problem clients in my store would have probably not been a good idea. Neither is ignoring them, as they may aggravate other customers.
It's kinda like raising children, I guess. They all need attention, some more than others :-)
Its on your comp. And considering that, yes, you do 'own' that copy. Considering you own that copy, you make the rules on it. In my oppinion, the hosts of games have the right to give out Admin to whoever they like (on their server), to ban whoever they like (on their server), and make their own rules (on their server).
I know that not everyone will agree with me, but I do believe that should be the hosts rights. Considering it is on their comp they should at least be given a partial refund if the owner decides to take away their sub. Plain and simple. That is fair. | |
I do agree that all of those bans/rules were pointless. However, that does not mean they have the right to take peoples money just because they aren't doing what Silk wants them to do on the server that they payed for. That copy belongs to them, so they can do what they want. Period. I do agree that those servers would be best hosted in private, but at least they should be given a partial refund.
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Thats a wise response. One that I hope they'll start practising. They do realize that by enforcing stupid and pointless rules such as this they'll only stop getting subscriptions, dont they?
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OK. I wasn't familiar with Proelium. Thanks for letting me know. Well, it still is their server as it is on their comp.
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Since so many people seem confused as to what you get with the subscription and what can be done on Proelium without the subscription, i'll clarify it here.
Without a subscription, a person can: 1. Play Proelium with the nine basic classes 2. Host Proelium on a public or private server 3. Be able to open Proelium Map Maker and toy around with it but not be able to save anything you do. 4. As Host, you can appoint Local Admins, ban, boot and mute. A subscription to Proelium ($1 monthly or $4 lifetime) provides you: 1. Access to the four extra classes. 2. The ability to fully use Proelium Map Maker. I hope this clarifies things so that things such as "the server that they payed for" are not said ever again in this thread. | |
Well, tha makes it even more pointless to remove their subscription....
If what they were doing was entirely different than something given in the subscriptions, that makes it worse considering the two are only related because they both involve the game. | |
1.) I (and the other admins) will ban you on the spot if you annoy me AT ALL
Hmm....Exactly how different is that from what Corn was doing? Seems Silk might be a hypocrit...... However, I do think its time for the authority to start lashing out at rule breakers. I just thank that cases like this one are a pathetic attempt by the Proelium staff at making sure everything goes exactly as they want it too. | |
hmm.... I find it pretty funny.
Of course, considering I have never played any of those games and this is the first time I have heard of Balzack, I am mainly just going off of my good sense of humor and what I have heard of him. | |
People losing their subscriptions are going to be part of the permanent ban system as soon as it's set up. If a person kept their subscription but got banned, it'd have the same effect as losing their subscription so Silk is trying to give them a last chance by doing a half measure of punishment, still leaving them the ability to play.
"Whether they were BYOND banned, Proelium banned, or whatever… the effect would be the same. No Proelium, no subscription." "Additionally, as of yet I’ve received absolutely no apologies for their actions, which might make me reconsider taking away some of the subscriptions. Might." Silk may be taking the sword to the Proelium community but he's also holding out a olive branch. The community however seems to ignore the olive branch because they don't feel like apologizing to someone they consider a 'fag' and many other derogatory terms. | |
First of all, I’d like to request for a moderator to lock this topic. It’s run its course, and from here it can only degrade into an all-out flame war.
I’m surprised how easily some of the Gurus have made judgments about the situation without taking the time to understand what has actually been going on. It’s a bit disappointing. Proelium is to my knowledge the most profitable game on BYOND. It didn’t become as profitable as it has just because people liked playing the game. I think the majority of players would tell you that I am trustworthy and fair in my moderation. I’m not on a power trip. I’m definitely not out to rip people off. Many of the accusations that have been made in this topic are flat out untrue. Therefore, I’m not going to address them. Example: I didn’t even know that I was pager banned… and it doesn’t matter, because I can log into any Proelium game whether I’m pager banned or not. As far as Balzack (Jaredoggy) goes… he has never had moderation powers in any of my games. He has not taken away any subscriptions. Most of the trolls on BYOND hate Balzack because he doesn’t put up with their crap. It’s funny to see them coming out from under their rocks to get back at Balzack for stuff that probably happened in DWO three years ago. Anyone who has played Proelium recently knows how immature and ridiculous the community has become. I will soon add several new administrators, including Balzack, to help deal with the problem. I trust that all of them will handle the situations in the game just as I would. I refuse to bring this argument into the BYOND forums. As soon as I can, I will post on my own forums explaining the entire situation so that everyone who is up in arms about it can fully understand what is going on. Until then, any problems or questions that you have can be discussed on the Silk Games forums, or by emailing me. | |
Sarm wrote:
I have a hard time seeing the "give me the car or I'll punch you in the mouth" analogy though. I see it more as paying for access to a nightclub or something. If I get rowdy and the staff has to kick me out, why would I expect to get my money back? It's not like the people are running around spamming or "hacking" or whatever. All corn did was pagerban someone. It's his person pager. He should be able to do with it as he pleases without having his subscription from a game stolen. | |
SilkWizard wrote:
Proelium is to my knowledge the most profitable game on BYOND. It didn’t become as profitable as it has just because people liked playing the game. I think the majority of players would tell you that I am trustworthy and fair in my moderation. I’m not on a power trip. I’m definitely not out to rip people off. Then don't remove subscriptions-- like Nadrew said, that's not punishment, it's just being a thief. Banning them instead IS different; it stops them from playing the game, and "removing the advantage of subscriptions" is just a cause and effect thing, and wasn't the real purpose of banning. As far as Balzack (Jaredoggy) goes… he has never had moderation powers in any of my games. He has not taken away any subscriptions. Most of the trolls on BYOND hate Balzack because he doesn’t put up with their crap. It’s funny to see them coming out from under their rocks to get back at Balzack for stuff that probably happened in DWO three years ago. What's this about? Anyone who has played Proelium recently knows how immature and ridiculous the community has become. I will soon add several new administrators, including Balzack, to help deal with the problem. I trust that all of them will handle the situations in the game just as I would. Right now, that doesn't look like a good idea to me. tenkuu is the only one doing real work on Proelum anymore, and he's a very fair and responsible administrator. The players admire him, and will obey him. You used to be the same as tenkuu, but it looks like the game's community (and Balzack) have rubbed off on you quite a bit. I refuse to bring this argument into the BYOND forums. As soon as I can, I will post on my own forums explaining the entire situation so that everyone who is up in arms about it can fully understand what is going on. Until then, any problems or questions that you have can be discussed on the Silk Games forums, or by emailing me. When players choose to subscribe, please find a suitable place to inform them that you are the kind of person who will take away their money and their benefits with little or no reason. I suggest you take Xooxer's advice. | |
Zaole wrote:
Right now, that doesn't look like a good idea to me. tenkuu is the only one doing real work on Proelum anymore, and he's a very fair and responsible administrator. The players admire him, and will obey him. I'm staying out of the whole affair and just trying to get the new admin stuff together so it'll be easier to deal with the usual offenders. I may not agree with all of what has transpired, but I'm just going to keep my mouth shut and hope that everything will pan out. Never does, but I'm kind of hopeful. :p | |
I don't know the specifics of this event. Frankly, I don't care. I am not for you. I am not against you. But I do know the law.
For future reference, actions can be filed in state of federal courts. State courts handles disputes arising under their laws while federal courts resolve questions of federal laws (including treaties, Constitutional questions, etc.) and disputes between citizens of different states involving a certain minimum amount (diversity suits).
Barring a state minimum, courts can (and will) hear cases for as little as $1.00 (called nominal damages). Small claims courts exist expressly for the purpose of hearing minor claims. The cost of filing a small claim usually varies from about $30-50 and is often recoverable.
The question isn't the rules of your little game. The question is 1) whether a valid, legally enforceable contract was formed 2) whether either party improperly breached that contract and 3) what is the proper measure of damages. Additionally, there may be questions related to common law or statutory fraud or other consumer laws.
You can justify your position all you want; he could do the same. That's why courts hear cases- because the litigants can't resolve them on their own. Giving the sub back after the suit has been filed is irrelevant if the contract has already been breached, though it may affect damages.
Business is an adult's game and is full of risk. Perhaps you did not understand that. Once you start taking people's money, a whole new world of liabilities opens up.
All of this has absolutely nothing to do with "supporting anarchy". I know players can be a pain. But so are many admins. So are many people in general. That is why rules and laws exist- to keep them in line. You are free to regulate your games within the confines of the greater rules- national and state laws.
Again, I make no statement as to the strengths of either case. But I do recognize potential problems. For example, your combative attitude is much more likely to provoke a conflict. It's not a judgement on you, your game, or anything else, simply an observation.
If you want legal advice (that includes the details of your exact case as opposed just some legal guidelines), you can pay my $150/hour fee. :-)
EDIT: Since I am feeling generous, here is your state's revised codes: http://www.leg.wa.gov/rcw/index.cfm . Of course, I leave researching the relevant caselaw up to you...