America vs Rest of the world wouldn't have a happy ending. For who? Who'd fight us? The French? Germans? Rusians? I am not feeling fear. Who says it should come down to that anyway? In my opinion, right now, it should be Iran and Nortn Korea vs the rest of the world, but that's off-topic and it isn't happening. They've got China, Russia, and France on their side. --Vito | |
Jp wrote:
You aren't 'giving terrorists better treatment then they give themselves'. You're taking suspects and torturing them to get what you want. Ever heard of Guantanamo Bay? You know, that prison where you've been holding several people with neither evidence nor trial, for years? That's what I was referring to. The prisoners get clean conditions, well-rounded (and I hear downright tasty) food, five times a day to pray, a free copy of the Qu'ran (sp)... I could go on and on. The guards aren't allowed to do more than play loud music in the cells of the prisoners to get them to talk. Jp continued: You've got an Australian national in there. Just because our government refuses to stand up for the human rights of one of our citizens doesn't mean we have to take it. ...An Australian national who was caught on a battlefield in Iraq or Afghanistan... Plotting, or actually in the act of, blowing up our troops and masquerading as civillians. The geneva Convention, which I believe you were referring to, calls such people "illegal enemy combatants" and provides no antitorture statutes for them. If we really wanted to torture them, we could. I'm not saying we should, but if we can save American lives without causing considerable or permanent harm to the terrorists there, I'll give what you call "torture" an A-OK. (I may want to take a vacation there... Tropical climate, square meals, no school... and on the government's bill. How do I sign up for such treatment? Why don't we sign up all the homeless in America? [NOTE: Vito is not proposing this for real, but as satire]) --Vito | |
If you don't care what happened in the past, then you clearly support amnesty for the immigrants already here, right? Or do you mean, you don't care what happened before you were born? Or that you don't care about the things in the past that made your life today as comfortable as it is?
The idea that America's founders formed a government and that makes it okay/better is based on an arbitrary sense of importance attached to forming a government... nobody asked to see their green card, they didn't learn the native language, and the people who greeted the pilgrims don't even have federal recognition and the accompanying tribal benefits today. God bless America! Anyway, if the Mexicans all got together and formed a committee and wrote the Constitution for their newly discovered nation of Immigrerica, would that put your mind at ease? Of course not... that's just what the scaremongers are most afraid of. So don't tell me the fact that we formed a government makes it different. The fact is that government or no government we can't hold the "we were here first" card up and gloat, since there was already somebody here... and the Mexicans are descended from some of those people. Yeah, we need a solution to the problem, but trying to close the border would be fruitless even if it wasn't immoral. You want to get rid of the illegal immigrants? Picket the companies that hire them. Going after each and every orange picker or meat packer is like trying to end drug use by arresting every casual pot smoker instead of going after the big dealers (which, coincidentally, is an awful lot like how our country decided to "solve" the drug problem.) Get rid of the job opportunities by cracking down on the companies, and the illegals have no inducement to come/stay... ...but that would leave us with a large, unintegrated and unemployed population already here, who would have no way to support themselves but crime. A realist would say "Hmmm, maybe amnesty for them and a guest worker program with fast track to citizenship could take care of that." But that's about as likely as the government cracking down on the employers. | |
China? China is our best friend, even though nobody wants to talk about it. China is propping up our country, keeping our government afloat because they recognize the need for a global trade partner of our magnitude. You know the massive deficit we're running? Remember the national debt? Those aren't just numbers. The popular conception is that this is money we owe ourselves, but where does the cash come from? The issuing (selling) of bonds that promise to pay more money in the future for funds now, of course. At umpty gazillion dollars a day, that's not being covered by people buying their grandchildren a $50 savings bond on the day they're born.
So who buys most of those bonds? Our good ol' Commy friends in China. That's been going on for a while now. As I said, nobody likes to talk about it... it undermines the Republican/Bushy image of isolatonism and fierce independence from foreign entanglements, especially when you consider what he's done to the deficit. As I said above, China's motive is probably just to make sure their emerging economy has a comparable superpower to trade with in the future (because if those bonds weren't being bought, oh-oh-bye-bye goes our whole economy and way of life)... but who's to say that's their only goal? And even if it is, there will still come a point when it's no longer sensible to back us on good faith alone... if our debt becomes too large, it'll make sense for China (and other creditors) to start attaching conditions to their largesse, to make sure they get something for their money... or just because our precarious position will give them too good an opportunity to pass up. Of course, nobody has to pay attention to things like this, because we have the growing crisis of affordable farm labor sneaking into our country to distract us. Yay! | |
<quote>
...An Australian national who was caught on a battlefield in Iraq or Afghanistan... Plotting, or actually in the act of, blowing up our troops and masquerading as civillians. The geneva Convention, which I believe you were referring to, calls such people "illegal enemy combatants" and provides no antitorture statutes for them. If we really wanted to torture them, we could. I'm not saying we should, but if we can save American lives without causing considerable or permanent harm to the terrorists there, I'll give what you call "torture" an A-OK. (I may want to take a vacation there... Tropical climate, square meals, no school... and on the government's bill. How do I sign up for such treatment? Why don't we sign up all the homeless in America? [NOTE: Vito is not proposing this for real, but as satire]) </quote> There was an Australian in Afghanistan? OMG! Let's have a look at things: David Hicks has never actually attacked or killed any American/British/Australian troops - And even the US government hasn't accused him of that. All he has been accused of is 'being a member of a terrorist organisation', and 'training for terrorism' and so forth. There's no evidence that he's ever been part of plotting to make an attack. Funnily enough, 'receiving military training' and 'Disliking the US' is not illegal under international law - which is the law that would apply in these circumstances. And then, he's been held for over four years while the US government waits. He, and several other Guantanamo detainees have written affidavits claiming they were tortured - that bears serious investigation. And, Vito, Torture is forbidden under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a treaty America has signed. No ifs, buts, or maybes - it's absolutely forbidden. | |
Vito Stolidus wrote:
In my opinion, right now, it should be Iran and Nortn Korea vs the rest of the world, but that's off-topic and it isn't happening. They've got China, Russia, and France on their side. That's untrue slander, plain and simple, and you know it. Reality does not conform to your simplistic "if you're not with us then you're TEH ENEMY OMG OMG OMG DIEEEEE" point of view. | |
Good god. Whack this thread.
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That's untrue slander, plain and simple, and you know it. Reality does not conform to your simplistic "if you're not with us then you're TEH ENEMY OMG OMG OMG DIEEEEE" point of view. No, it's not. The French and the rest of the UN are opposing all our attempts to defend ourselves. Ever heard the statement "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"? The French and Russians are diong everything they can to oppose human rights in countries like Iraq, North korea, Iran, China, and more. It is proven that France, Germany, and Russia were getting paid by Hussein to keep his atrocities off the adgenda at the UN. These countries decided that those bribes were more important than human rights then. I'll bet anyone $100 that if the US tries to stop Iran's nuclear program, it will get Zero help from France, Germany, or Russia. I'd bet an additional $50 that they would actively oppose the US. (I would bet that, if it were actually in doubt. Don't take that up, you'll lose $150) The Chinese and North Koreans are actively supporting Iran's attempt to "join the Nuclear club." Korea donated ICBMs to Iran last month. What other kinds of support are there? --Vito | |
Jp wrote:
Let's have a look at things: David Hicks has never actually attacked or killed any American/British/Australian troops - And even the US government hasn't accused him of that. "Training for terrorism" - They caught him when they raided an Al Queda training ground. Probalby Afghanistan. He, and several other Guantanamo detainees have written affidavits claiming they were tortured - that bears serious investigation. ... Yeah, we'd better believe those who were caught doing the things mentioned in my earlier post (and those for the most part, whose holy books encourages them to lie in order to kill "infedels" and Jews). And, Vito, Torture is forbidden under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a treaty America has signed. No ifs, buts, or maybes - it's absolutely forbidden. Torture requires bodily harm. Please name me one exact instance in which someone at Guantanimo Bay was tortured - And you can't use that fabricated Newsweek article (Which was proven to have been fabricated). --Vito | |
Vito Stolidus wrote:
America vs Rest of the world wouldn't have a happy ending. Vito Stolidus wrote: Who'd fight you? here's a list of countries that no-one wants to fight:-America vs Rest of the world wouldn't have a happy ending. Japan Japan is the most advanced country on the planet. Going to war with them would be national suicide Taiwan Taiwan manufacturs silicon, if a country is at war with them, taiwan can just cancel exports of silicon and bring a 'developed' country to it's knees Israel The last time Israel had a war it lasted six days and they won - without any outside/foreign help China China is perhaps the only country in the world who's army can survive a direct nuclear hit Any those sound like enemies that you want to have? | |
Do you honestly think we always follow everything we sign or even our own rules? I am sure we have tortured hundreds of people, and what happened to those prisoners in the video is proof enough.
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Jp wrote:
Maybe the Queen of England is going to turn up and start pushing you around? King of England. ;) | |
Japan is the most advanced country on the planet. Going to war with them would be national suicideJapan Japan is required to have onlya 15,000 man army by our treaties after WW2. Taiwan manufacturs silicon, if a country is at war with them, taiwan can just cancel exports of silicon and bring a 'developed' country to it's kneesTaiwan Who do you think is protecting these kids from big red China? The last time Israel had a war it lasted six days and they won - without any outside/foreign helpIsrael Who do you think is protecting these kids from the rest o' the middle east. Who do you think is Israel's most adamant supporter. Who do you think Israel gets alot of money from? China is perhaps the only country in the world who's army can survive a direct nuclear hitChina Like they care, and also it's lucky we have more than one nuke then. | |
Vito Stolidus wrote:
Torture requires bodily harm. This thread got boring. I'm half inclined to add some rou-, er, I mean. Meh. digi, come mod this already. | |
Hedgemistress wrote:
We do need to do more to secure our borders, yes, but as a nation we also need to be aware that we were -founded- by "illegal immigrants"... Yeah, and look how well that worked out for the locals. =P | |
If America ignores every one of the international treaties and conventions and other such things you've signed, I don't have a problem with Japan doing so. That particular regulation is entirely outdated, as well.
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This topic has become far too large, take it to your blogs if you have to continue. Topic closed.
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--Vito