You know, a discussion such as this need not be a flame war. If you can't add substantiatively to the debate, don't chime in just to flame me, please. It really hastens the thread's closing.
It's funny, I've actually thought out all my positions using a tactic that may be new to some:
logic: (1) Valid reasoning; (2) The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
I logiked out a position starting from a basis of provable fact. If everyone did that, politics could be civil again. The trouble today is that lies and misstatements are used as fact for political gain, so that those who logic out positions often start, unknowingly, from a basis of falsehoods.
--Vito
*Shakes head sadly*
You know, there are those who would oppress us, and it's not race related. The islamofacist extremists who knocked down two tall buildings on 9/11 want to force us into following their religion or kill us. I've heard the words "religious Jihad" used to describe America's defense of all that is free. Whoever said that was almost right. The truth is, there is a Jihad going on. A war began below the radar and has been buildding up for two and a half decades. Instead of fighting those who attack it, you'd have America aquiesce and hand victory to its enemies. You're entitled to that position, of course. That's what freedom means. I just hope, for your sake and mine, that America remains a beacon of freedom in this steadily darkening world. Those who brought Communism on the Soviet Union knew not what they did. Those who may still bring islamofascism down on us today have no idea what will happen if we follow their plans. --Vito | |
Vito Stolidus wrote:
If you present it as not an option, well, fewer will do it. Fewer people will use a condom, yes. And that's a bad thing, because it won't stop them screwing around (and I mean "screwing" quite literally). Failing to educate people about condoms is failing to meet the problem head-on. For the sake of argument, let's suppose that I have a religious objection to blood transfusions. That doesn't mean that I have the right to stop other people from getting blood transfusions that could save their lives. Similarly, the people who have a religious objection to condoms don't have the right to stop other people using condoms, an act which could also save their lives and prevent the spread of AIDS. And about the Republicans comment - the main reason we're sending people into Africa to help fight AIDS is to make some rich liberal somwehere feel good, not to actually help. Bulldung. Stopping AIDS is a goal that everyone can agree is a good one. It's like putting out a fire; are you suggesting that firefighters only fight fires to make themselves feel good? And before you selectively quote me and call me a hypocrite because And how does it do harm? Abstinance works every time its tried. Teach that only. Did you even READ what I said? Crispy wrote: [...] sometimes people just won't abstain and won't be faithful, and nothing anyone can do will change that. People will always screw around. Always. It's human nature; we're wired that way. Therefore, telling people not to is naive; they will still do it. And when they do so without using a condom, AIDS potentially gets spread around. Therefore, it is necessary to educate people about condoms. | |
The actual truth about America is that we have elected officials with sketchy histories throwing around their power irresponsibly and without our best interests at hand. It's hard for us to know what our own country really is doing when so many people higher up in power can say one thing but do something else and get away with it. For example, recently Bayer found that it had a medication which was contaminated with HIV, the FDA actually told Bayer not to make it pubicly known and had congress keep quiet about it, then in order to save profits Bayer just sold the medication to a group of European and eastern Asian countries. Bayer isn't getting so much as a slap on the wrist from America. Wow, I am proud to say my country stands for justice, because it really does!
Do you ever wonder why people will lash back and call you brain washed when you support America and show it as this shining example of greatness? Well it is because of stupid crap like this that the government just turns its head from, I don't know what set of 50 states you have been watching, but the one that exists isn't a clean and pristine body which dedicates its time to help others first, no, the one that exists is a shady one that does half-assed acts of charity to take the heat off of its actions which aren't so positive. | |
Kusanagi wrote:
> The actual truth about America is that we have elected officials with sketchy histories throwing around their power irresponsibly and without our best interests at hand. It's hard for us to know what our own country really is doing when so many people higher up in power can say one thing but do something else and get away with it. That is nothing I disagree with. Politicians need accountability, and these days accountability is few and far between. Some politicians literally have gotten away with murder and have not been charged. (I won't mention who that was) >For example, recently Bayer found that it had a medication which was contaminated with HIV, the FDA actually told Bayer not to make it pubicly known and had congress keep quiet about it, then in order to save profits Bayer just sold the medication to a group of European and eastern Asian countries. Could you give me an article for that one? Sorry, I can't just take your word for it. What I'll bet is that the medicine may have been exposed to HIV. the difference in syntax there is a big one. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with everything that's done in America. Supporting America in ts fight for survival doesn't make me a brainwashed drone. Bayer isn't getting so much as a slap on the wrist from America. Wow, I am proud to say my country stands for justice, because it really does! If it's true, they can be prosecuted if someone took the medicine and it gave themm HIV. If it didn't, they should probably be fined. > Do you ever wonder why people will lash back and call you brain washed when you support America and show it as this shining example of greatness? Well it is because of stupid crap like this that the government just turns its head from, I don't know what set of 50 states you have been watching, but the one that exists isn't a clean and pristine body which dedicates its time to help others first, no, the one that exists is a shady one that does half-assed acts of charity to take the heat off of its actions which aren't so positive. So instead, you take the side of people who would like nothing better than to saw your head off with a jagged, rusty knife. I see the logic in that... Just because bad things happen in America sometimes doesn't mean America is an evil country. No place on earth with humans on it is a clean, pristine paradise, simply because humanity is imperfect. America is the greatest, most free country on earth today. I'll admit much of what is done around the world today is done to benefit America. I'll say that proudly. If America wasn't looking out for itself, I'd be worried. You also should understand that if stories like the Bayer story were true, or even within 55 miles of true, the national media would be all over it. (See Abu Ghraib, 'Memogate' Scandal, Cheney accidental shooting, etc) The fact that it hasn't been pasted all over our newspapers and TV screens means either (1) that it can be disproved with 15 minutes and an internet connection of (2) it hurts the media's favorite people (Democrats, France, Terrorists, the UN). There is no possible way to keep a giant blunder such as that under wraps, with all the government leaks these days. I know my country is not perfect. No country on earth is. The best gauge of how America is doing is to look at leaders like Fidel Castro and Kofe Anan. If they're condemning our actions, we're doing things correctly. Run for the hills if Castro starts agreeing with American policy. --Vito | |
I can't argue this point if you won't see the facts. This part of the topic is closed. You can lead a horse to water...
--Vito | |
Vito Stolidus wrote:
Could you give me an article for that one? Sorry, I can't just take your word for it. What I'll bet is that the medicine may have been exposed to HIV. the difference in syntax there is a big one. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with everything that's done in America. Supporting America in ts fight for survival doesn't make me a brainwashed drone. Here is a video looking at Bayer's actions. http://www.yikers.com/ video_bayer_purposely_deployed_medicine_with_hiv_in_it.html No, supporting America and trying to make it look like some perfect beacon of justice does make you look like a brainwashed drone. So instead, you take the side of people who would like nothing better than to saw your head off with a jagged, rusty knife. I see the logic in that... Just because bad things happen in America sometimes doesn't mean America is an evil country. No place on earth with humans on it is a clean, pristine paradise, simply because humanity is imperfect. America is the greatest, most free country on earth today. I'll admit much of what is done around the world today is done to benefit America. I'll say that proudly. If America wasn't looking out for itself, I'd be worried. Yes, I totally took the side of the people who want to kill me, I fully said I supported terrorists, right? For someone who says they only argue with ideas that are based on facts you sure do like to make assumptions. You just discredited yourself entirely as being a person of reason by saying that, if I were to make an assumption I would say that your logic is that anyone who doesn't defend America 100% must be on the side of the people who want to kill them. I can't even believe you'd say that America is the "greatest", "most free country" on the earth today. How many other countries have you lived in to compare America to and to know if it is actually better than them? Worshipping America and saying that it is the best is the exact kind of stuff that is stopping us from progressing and making America better, if we think it is at its best then it wont improve, and trust me, our government is far from being at where it could be. You also should understand that if stories like the Bayer story were true or even within 55 miles of true, the national media would be all over it. (See Abu Ghraib, 'Memogate' Scandal, Cheney accidental shooting, etc) The fact that it hasn't been pasted all over our newspapers and TV screens means either (1) that it can be disproved with 15 minutes and an internet connection of (2) it hurts the media's favorite people (Democrats, France, Terrorists, the UN). There is no possible way to keep a giant blunder such as that under wraps, with all the government leaks these days. Well the Bayer story is true, another assumption on your part. Unless you want to discredit the show Scarborough Country. This version of the story, however, says Bayer gets slapped with a fine, which isn't nearly enough punishment for what the company did. This is actually a story that can be approved with 15 minutes and an internet connection, sorry that is just kind of amusing to me. Bayer was never criminally investigated or anything, and it's obvious there are huge coverups at work, so would you really expect the media to be jumping all over it? Maybe your idea of the system doesn't just quite always work, and maybe it would be a good idea to begin understanding that not everything works like it should. I know my country is not perfect. No country on earth is. The best gauge of how America is doing is to look at leaders like Fidel Castro and Kofe Anan. If they're condemning our actions, we're doing things correctly. Run for the hills if Castro starts agreeing with American policy. It is a sad thing when you have to look at some of the most destructive and hateful leaders to compare them to America so that you feel better about America. | |
Vito Stolidus wrote:
I can't argue this point if you won't see the facts. Excuse me? You're the one not seeing the facts. I'm making claims and you're completely dismissing them without any reason. If instead you want to agree to disagree, that's fine too. But don't merely dismiss me without any stated grounds for doing so. That's plain rude. This part of the topic is closed. You can lead a horse to water... Right back at ya... | |
Vito Stolidus wrote:
So instead, you take the side of people who would like nothing better than to saw your head off with a jagged, rusty knife. Gee, thanks. I have no intention of sawing Crispy's head off; Neither do any of the islamic friends I have, nor any of those from Africa, or any other religious background or cultural background I associate myself with. You do realize there are other countries out there, right ? And even countries that harbor terrorists and house people such as Kofe Anan are full of human beings who don't deserve the kind of intolerant, narrow-minded view that such a statement implies ? Read this You also should understand that if stories like the Bayer story were true, or even within 55 miles of true, the national media would be all over it. Oh sure. Because media never covers anything up, or lies. And the US government is always honest. Right. Hell, even I'm not patriotic enough to even think that my government won't ever lie. I know my country is not perfect. No country on earth is. The best gauge of how America is doing is to look at leaders like Fidel Castro and Kofe Anan. If they're condemning our actions, we're doing things correctly. Run for the hills if Castro starts agreeing with American policy. ... The only countries you can compare America to are those which house people like Castro and Kofe Anan ? Jeebus help us. | |
Concerning Schools: the problem there is that the neo-socialist former hippies run them. In my opinion, the public school system should be rebuilt from scratch, but that isn't going to happen anytine soon. Lack of funding certainly has nothing to do with it. *cough* The so-called "working" class only gets shortchanged because of the social programs many politicians use to increase their voter bases. The "working" class contains many people who sit at home, subsisting on checks from programs like Welfare. There are also illegal immigrants, who by their nature drive down wages for "working" class jobs. The 'working' class consists of those on minimum wage and below. The 'social programs' instigated by politicians that screw them over include George Bush's habit of providing tax cuts to the upper crust of society, George Bush's habit of going to war with countries in order to boost the price of oil, and other such things. Welfare is not a problem. Welfare is a good thing, and something that all countries should provide - America doesn't even have a decent welfare system, last time I checked. In all honesty, though, think about it - not everybody can have a job. There will ALWAYS be less jobs then people of working age, and that means some people will be out of a job for some time. If they get unlucky - or have crappy education - they may well never end up getting back into work. They need something to live on - they shouldn't be left to rot and die just because they aren't working. It's even harder if it's a generation thing - say our hypothetical out-of-a-job person has a kid. Now, that child isn't exactly going to get the benefit of splendiferous education, given the amount of disposable income his/her family possesses, so they won't be well educated. Tertiary education is out of the question. Maybe they get lucky, and manage to get a job. But what if they don't? What if they end up not being able to work at all, because they're badly educated and unlucky, at no fault of their own? What if THAT person has children? How the hell are those children supposed to get a job? How are they going to find out what they need to do in an interview? Where are they going to get serious education from? That is who welfare exists for - the people that, quite honestly, can't pull themselves out of poverty. Letting them starve would be criminal. So what if that means that some people 'bludge', and just sit around all day? Worse things happen then small quantities of the tax you pay going towards the percentage that choose to rort the system - the people that deliberately subsist on welfare forever would be a small proportion of the whole. Finally, illegal immigration really wouldn't be a problem if you had decent workplace laws in America. If there is a decent standard for the minimum wage - i.e., not something that was enough to live on ten years ago, like the current American minimum wage - and that standard is enforced, and legal immigration from various countries is made easier, then that won't be a problem - there will be no reason to hire the now-legal immigrants, because they'll have to be paid the same wage as everyone else. The only reason they can be paid less is because they're illegal currently. I really don't see the problem with immigration - whatever happened to 'the land of the free'? America is not at all close to pure capitalistic - we're getting closer to socialism nowadays. Social programs (see above) let people leech off the government, the tax system punishes successful small buisineses, and we already have a Socialist ruling council of sorts .(The Supreme Court, until recent changes in the Court's makeup. Now state Supreme Courts think they are the ruling councils - I heard one ordered the government to raise taxes...) Excuse me while I laugh. Heartily. Hahahaha. That'll be enough. Not at all close to pure capitalistic? What are you on? Leaning towards socialism? That's even more ridiculous! American welfare is ridiculously minimal compared to that in other countries. American Industrial Relations laws are ridiculously slanted towards industry, compared to other countries. Sounds capitalistic to me. As for the Supreme Court, I very much doubt that one ordered the government to increase taxes. The Supreme Court enforces the law, and in several circumstances, it has done that very effectively. I swear, you're more Right then Hitler... | |
You're completely ridiculous. Insane. Nuts. Paranoid. Really, Vito, you disturb me almost as much as people who wear tinfoil hats.
There are, funnily enough, other countries that are substantially more 'free' then America. For example, pretty much every other Western nation on Earth. For a shining example of a wonderful country, you should look at Sweden. Sweden is bloody amazing. Additionally, there are barely any 'islamofascists' (I love the way you link terrorism and Islam. Because, y'know, any religion that preaches universal peace and love is obviously terrorist in nature) around the place at all. That particular group of terrorists - Osama bin Laden and co. - are practically gone. They would be even more gone if America treated other countries like they were sovereign states, and, y'know, didn't commit war crimes. Probably the biggest surge in people deciding to join the tiny minority of 'muslims' (Quotes not used lightly - Osama is as much a muslim as George Bush is a christian - that is to say, not at all) that want to blow up other people was caused by the US invading Iraq and Afghanistan. At least invading Afghanistan made some measure of sense, though. | |
Somehow, Vito, I don't think you know how to work out the 'success rate' for a particular contraceptive/anti-STD measure. Because abstinence ISN'T 100% effective.
Abstinence always works when it's 'used correctly' - i.e., people don't go out and have sex with people. But that's not how you measure effectiveness - you need to measure the proportion of people that try to use abstinence, but fail - I.e., the number of people that try to be abstain, but end up having sex and getting aids/pregnant anyway. Condoms are something like 97% succesful - that's the commonly bandied around figure. That includes situations where the condom was defective, or fell off, or wasn't worn properly. If you get rid of those, you end up with something like a 99.99% success rate. In the same way, you need to include situations where people tried to use abstinence, but didn't use it properly. With those, you'll find out why sex-ed programs that focus on 'this is how you use a condom, this is what other contraceptive methods are...' work better then programs that go 'Sex is bad - don't have sex. Because you'll get pregnant, and DIE', on average. It's because, as Crispy has stated, people WANT to have sex. People won't abstain, however much you tell them to. They should know how to protect themselves when they do have sex. | |
Got to admit that Sweden is one of the best countries in the world at the minute and certainly would be my choice of places to live. America is losing support from a lot of the world at the minute and i understand that my country (Britain) isn't exactly perfect. I'd much rather live in somewhere like Canada, Sweden or Australia. :)
Edit: Canada only when they stop clubbing baby seals :( | |
Australia isn't too good at the moment, either - our current prime minister enjoys doing everything George Bush tells him to do, and is fairly right-wing - he refuses to do anything about climate change, he has no morals at all, and he's basically screwing over the working poor. Additionally, the opposition isn't doing much to try and stop it.
Basically, Sweden would be better. | |
America, protector of the RIGHT and FREE
God bless America
Save us from the people with brown coloured skin who want to oppress us