I actually once put a "Hall of Shame" on here when i got conned out of about $50 for some coding work and the coder (Crashed) vanished mid-way through and never came back online or got in contact.
Well there is a more serious matter that was going on before this but its been somewhat status quo until recentley.
Basically, enthusiastic with the ideas of a new game, i set about making images/graphics/icons ect - The problem was i needed someone who was also interested. That didnt happen, so my only other options were to either forget it or 'pay' someone to help.
I did forget it for a while but then i really wanted to do it and so i decided that ill just pay out of my own pocket for the help i need.
So post on the Classified Ad's and get a response. The coder seems trust-worthy and he gets praise from other people i talked to. When i talked with him he seemed pretty nice and so it looked like id found someone who could help.
So when i start paying him weekly ($50 at first, then $25 every week after for a grand total of $200) and then things go down hill. I never got to see the code he was doing though he assured me there was nothing to "see" it was all foundations for the game and there wouldnt be anything you could actually see in effect until later.... then... well he started coming online less and less.... emails went un-answered, Instant Messages went what i assumed was ignored. Basically i started this in January, with an estimate of "two weeks" to complete what i wanted. We get to sometime in March/April and he tells me about some personal issues and assures me he will sort it out and that he wont charge me anymore and will finnish the project off.
Well he told me he would be able to code (be free of personal issues and hassles??) from the 8th. Thing is it seemed to me like i was getting blown off again. So after 6 months, $200 later and no code i finally become a little 'frustrated' and let him know that this really isnt what i had in mind when we started.
Well basically, for the period of 6 months (about 5 from the last payment) from when i paid him till now ive not gotten much of anything from him, not even much of an explination - i had to hound him via email to get that "he was having personal issues" out of him really.
Anyhow, this is where it turns the way i thought it would and he basically turns round and says "I dont have to give you anything, im being generious in saying that i will help you code now really." when i asked for $100 refund and some slight coding help (for the other $100 he has) i was told that was out of the question.. he had
"coded for 150 hours and it got lost in hard drive curruption.. do i expect him to work for free? his time costs money."
I guess next time i buy something from a shop i should expect that when i discover its broken, they tell me "Why should i have to pay for it? Its not my problem, its your problem. Now leave or ill just take the broken one back and ull get nothing."
So there it is... i have two options
A) $100 Refund - Lose $100 for some "coding" he never did.
Lets not be stupid here, he told me 3 versions of this if i count. 1st that the code was done and on another "Hard drive" and before that he didnt code at all because of his personal issues, and now most recentley it was lost in HDD curruption. So yeah, he never did it. Id bet another $200 on that.
B) Accept his generious offer and let him "code" though how many months will i be waiting before i find out he isnt still?
I said A) to which i was informed "Well im broke and in debt its gonna take a while."
I have paypal records, infact his own blog states he was taking teh payment and job of coding from me, there are forum posts for when i advertised, i have emails. Unfortunatley as he was quick to point out to me PayPal dont cover fraud for 'services' and even if they did i cant prove he didnt do it....
Alas i let my guard down 6 months ago in a fit of enthusiasm to make a game, and its cost me. The money itself its not the main thing that bothers me, its just the fact people can act like that and the fact that i let him con me more or less.
Anyways, i wont mention this BYOND Members name just yet, he indicated if i wanted to play "Hard Ball" he didnt care as he was leaving BYOND anyway and he would just give me nothing period.
But.... i want a record of this somewhere. So if i feel this isnt being sorted to any fair resolve, im going to post so people "hire" this coder themselves in future at their own risk.
Thanks for reading =)
ID:184925
 Jun 9 2006, 11:12 am
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Well, there's no way to respond properly to this without reminding you to be careful who you trust. Someone you just met is usually not a great choice, and you definitely don't want to pay them in advance (let alone weeks in advance) for code you've never seen. After all, if this creep was reputable, he would've kept giving you updates to the code so you could see his progress, and so you could have a copy of it. That hard drive crash story is complete BS.
If you paid this guy through Paypal or something similar, you should be able to file a grievance with them over it. Lummox JR | |
O-matic wrote:
This should be rather sent through the Support Form than a public forum. Please don't. This has nothing to do with us. Asking us to get involved is like asking Microsoft to help with a scammer who promised some Visual Basic work. | |
I wouldn't mind knowing which BYOND member this was so i can keep well clear from them when hiring people. Things like this make me really look down on the BYOND community.
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Mike H wrote:
O-matic wrote: Oh. I always tought the staff helps out in such issues. Sorry, then. O-matic | |
This is why I do everything myself, with the exception of help from Pika, who lives down the street.
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Dead_Demon wrote:
with the exception of help from Pika, who lives down the street. Exactly. Only trust someone if they are close enough for you to retaliate when things go wrong. | |
Ben Gilmore a.k.a. Ben.G
I've waited for a few days now since our discussion and he hasent even said "hi" to confirm he is actually still interested in the fact he took $200 from me and ripped me off and did nothing... No matter what he claims to have done i paid him $200 and i got... excuses and explinations of why i got nothing for it. After all that id expect maybe he would indicate he still gives a damn and at least pretends to try and help -_- I'd rather lose the money, than keep it quiet hanging on to this hope that he is gonna do something, or that he will ever refund me any amount before the next millenium. At least other people will know to think twice! | |
UnknownDuelist wrote:
Ben Gilmore a.k.a. Ben.G Hrm. I was under the impression I've been on MSN pretty much consistently with you for the last few days trying to work this out. I must be trying to avoid you by not being constantly on the computer. There are no logical explanations, like having a job or a life and not always being at the computer. For the developer forum's benefit, I programmed the entire time I was paid and lost everything in a hard drive corruption. Sound hard to believe? I really don't care. I'm such a bad guy after this happened I asked UnknownDuelist to stop paying me so I could sort stuff out. Even though I worked on his stupid game and did everything I was required to and lost my work by something not my fault, I still agreed to refund him $100 as he requested. Then he asked me to program again and I agreed to do that also. I guess I'm a bad guy. This is why I don't like BYOND. UnknownDuelist, thanks to his immaturity, can enjoy his refund of $0 and 0 hours of programming. Other people won't have to think twice. I'm through with helping people on BYOND. Edit: I guess I'll vent more. I don't understand why I'm being made out to be a bad person for working and then losing it. This guy was not good to work for as he changed designs every damn day, making stuff I'd already programmed obsolete. I've worked for people countless times before and have never fallen through before, but I guess I was just out to scam this guy. Whatever. I honestly don't care what this community thinks of me any more. I got a bad break and offered to rectify it several times, first agreeing to his refund (two weeks was what I specified as appropriate time), then agreeing to program for him pro bono. If I'm still going to be the protaganist in this story, screw him. Seriously. I'm not going to refund one penny or write one more snippet of code. I was more than willing to before, because I sympathized with him - if the shoe was on the other foot, I'd probably be pretty upset too. However, the manner in which he's decided to handle himself has removed any empathy left in me for the guy. He's made his own decisions, and I'll make mine now. I'm not sacrificing any more of my time out of my own generosity. He's on his own. | |
Ben has been on AIM most of the time, and when he's not, he's not off for very long. Granted, some time is spent idle/away, but he leaves a personal phone number to contact him when he goes away, should you actually need to reach him. And of course, Ben's almost always in Converse, and again, not always non-away or non-idle. It's not really that hard to pick up the phone and dial some digits to hunt down your money.
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Am I reading this correctly? He paid you for something, you worked on it but lost it so he still doesn't have what he paid for, and because he pissed you off you feel he deserves a $200 loss with nothing to show for it?
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Sarm wrote:
Am I reading this correctly? He paid you for something, you worked on it but lost it so he still doesn't have what he paid for, and because he pissed you off you feel he deserves a $200 loss with nothing to show for it? No, you're not reading this correctly. You're not reading this even close to correctly. I said that we agreed that a $100 refund was fair because I had worked on it as agreed upon and neither of us should have to take the full loss. However, after that, he started getting greedy. I'm not working as long as I did on that project and then going further in to debt for it, and he understood that when we agreed on a partial refund. That was my best offer, and he decided not to take it. His choice. | |
Y'know, the booting process warns you a little beforehand when your harddrive is going bad. At that point, I'd consider sending him what I have so far. In fact, I would've done that about every week if I was payed to do something. Y'know, like somewhat of a progress report.
It's not Ben's fault that the harddrive failed though. I'd take the $100 back and be done with it. But, Unknown said that he never got to see the code. He also stated that Ben said that "there is nothing to see yet" and that "it was all just the foundations of the game" means that Unknown could've said a few things for that response. I'd take it he asked for the code. [Edit] Seems like Lummox agrees with me. http://developer.byond.com/forum/ index.cgi?action=message_read&id=462061&forum=7&view=0 | |
Transcript of a future Microsoft tech support call:
Irate Customer: I bought Windows Vista and all I got was an empty box! I want a refund. Microsoft: Sorry, the hard drive we were keeping all our work on failed. We lost everything. It wasn't our fault. Irate Customer: ... Microsoft: Tell you what, we'll be really nice and refund half of what you paid for it. Irate Customer: But I got nothing! Why should I pay you money for nothing? Microsoft: We worked on it for a long time, and it cost us a lot of money. We're not going further into debt for this. It wasn't our fault. We shouldn't have to take the full loss for this. Millions of customers must still pay us for those empty boxes, because it's not our fault that a hard drive failed. Irate Customer: It's not my fault you didn't make any backups. What kind of reputable business doesn't take full responsibility for its data and backups? I want a full refund! Microsoft: Now you're getting greedy. We worked hard. We deserve to get paid for that. Our offer is more than fair. Irate Customer: Your offer is terrible. I'm reporting you to the Better Business Bureau. Microsoft: Have it your way. No refund for you. Enjoy your empty box! Remember, it wasn't our fault. Irate Customer slams the phone, muttering as he places his $200 empty box on the shelf next to the $50 empty box he bought last month. "Two in a row!" he thinks to himself. "What are the chances it'll happen again?" He shrugs and puts on his coat to go to the computer store and look for more boxes with vague software markings. | |
Ben, ive been on my own since i paid you, there wont be any difference.
The refund i sent via paypal ($100) was off my own bat and you said you understood and sent me an email previously (which i didnt get?) explaining that you wanted to refund me something or w/e. Anyhow you said id have to wait a few months for you to get the money.... however i thought u had some code for my game on some hard drive somewhere in addition. Then recentley i spoke to you and u told me you had nothing at all (code wise) and the $100 refund was that (but you didnt know when) or some coding help. Not both. It's not like i was asking you to program the entire game still, i just wanted help with a section of it that was that. I had another coder... i told you thats why i wanted a $100 to help pay him for the work you "did/didnt/were" doing. As far as you being online, yeah, you have been online, but since out discussion, and since you said you could program from the 8th... have you even droped me a message or an email to say "Hi i havent forgotten ill be able to give you something/code something .... date". Which is why i thought enough was enough, i didnt expect a refund at all anyway after the your reply to my email and the conversation we had on MSN. You were quick to point out what is and is not covered by PayPal for 'transactions' and fraud... thats when i realized. Far from being 'immature' im making sure no one else falls into this trap in future. As you demonstrated in your post your quite capable of walking off without doing anything anyway - you didnt even post and ask to talk to me to sort it out and why i posted on the forum... just in with the "well enjoy your $0 refund and 0 hours coding". Even if you were 'pissed off' about this thats no excuse for theft. Anyways, | |
Ben G wrote:
Sarm wrote: Actually, from what I've read of the logs of yours and UD's MSN chats, I can safely say that he made it very clear that he wanted $100 refunded and you to work on the determined coding area (the Duel System). Maybe you misinterpreted it, but that's what I read. You've already said you're a super-genius or something, so I have no idea why you didn't pick this up earlier. Even if that wasn't the case, your logic is massively flawed. If someone does not recieve the set upon code (or anything else, for that matter), the payee is not justified in keeping the payment. It's just not right. To keep the money, it's up to the payee to follow through with whatever was determined at purchase. That's how it is. Replying to your first post... By the way, you're not "Helping" BYOND coders. You're working for commission. "Helping" would be you working for no cost. From the first time UD tried to come up with a compromise, you were adamant about it. You said something about how "PayPal doesn't cover intangable items" so he couldn't ask for a refund, or something like that. He acted much more professionally than you did. I severly doubt that you did any coding for it whatsoever, and I can safely guess you did not intend to either refund money or code for him after your "hard drive was erased" or whatever your excuse was. You were never the "protaganist" of this story. You were the mercenary that lazed around and stole money to make up for his debts. UD's the protaginst, and you're the antagonist. There's my rant. The one from the person that has to make up for all of this nonsense you created. | |
Mike H wrote:
Transcript of a future Microsoft tech support call: This pretty much sums it up; If you pay for a service, and the provider fails to accomplish the service it is not the fault of the consumer. Unless, of course: "This service includes the possibility that at any point in time all data may be lost because aforementioned provider is unsure of the frequency of backups, if any. Refunds in such a case are 50%, or none if you think that is unacceptable. Refund may be none at whim of provider, if aforementioned provider feels slighted." Somehow I doubt the above clause screams ripe business. | |
Kalajin wrote:
I severly doubt that you did any coding for it whatsoever, and I can safely guess you did not intend to either refund money or code for him after your "hard drive was erased" or whatever your excuse was. It'd be best to base your statements on facts, rather than own conclusions. Ben is not the kind of guy to steal, anyway. O-matic | |
O-matic