Does byond even advertise its existance?

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May 16 2008, 8:20 am
In response to Nick231
Nick231 wrote:
I've been around for almost 6 years now. About a month ago it took me about 15 minutes to find where the hell the tutorials were to give the link to someone. God help any new people who come around.


Yeah, I agree with this. I have been around BYOND for 8 years now, and I still have no idea where they are. Everytime I see a newcomer ask for some help, I try and find the link to these tutorials, and give up after 20 minutes of searching.
May 16 2008, 9:00 am
In response to Cavern
Cavern wrote:
Nick231 wrote:
I've been around for almost 6 years now. About a month ago it took me about 15 minutes to find where the hell the tutorials were to give the link to someone. God help any new people who come around.


Yeah, I agree with this. I have been around BYOND for 8 years now, and I still have no idea where they are. Everytime I see a newcomer ask for some help, I try and find the link to these tutorials, and give up after 20 minutes of searching.

I think this is a matter of older users not liking change. We've had complaints every time we've changed the site layout. However, I'm certainly willing to hear suggestions and think we've been pretty flexible as far as incorporating new elements.

As far as the tutorials/help, it seems to me that if a person is confused, the first thing they'll do is click on the "help" link. That leads to a page that explains where everything is, including a link to the developer site which has tutorials/libraries/demos right at the top. I suppose we could put more information in the BYOND Help site itself, but if people aren't getting it now, I doubt that'll make much difference.
May 16 2008, 9:01 am
In response to Airjoe
Airjoe wrote:
You guys should try and start to implement some basic SEO, meta descriptions/keywords, better titles, h1 tags, etc.

Last month we ran through the site and optimized as much as we could. Notice the new titles on the high-traffic pages, spammier descriptions, etc. They've helped our placement a bit, but with so many sites out there it's not a trivial task to get a high ranking.
May 16 2008, 9:21 am
In response to Tom
I advertised on more than a few websites, most recently a Roguelike community, and a HL2 modding community. They pretty much just laugh about BYOND, or end up banning me for "hidden referral links".

The referral system that BYOND uses is widely frowned upon by most gaming communities out there, not to mention that people seem to say: "I'll just go learn C++!", and then fail miserably at it, and give up on game design altogether.

Advertising in other communities is also extremely looked down upon. I have been banned from a few forums for it as well. =/ I've been advertising for about two years, and never ONCE have I seen even a single Referral come my way. =/
May 16 2008, 9:24 am
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
Cavern wrote:
Nick231 wrote:
I've been around for almost 6 years now. About a month ago it took me about 15 minutes to find where the hell the tutorials were to give the link to someone. God help any new people who come around.


Yeah, I agree with this. I have been around BYOND for 8 years now, and I still have no idea where they are. Everytime I see a newcomer ask for some help, I try and find the link to these tutorials, and give up after 20 minutes of searching.

I think this is a matter of older users not liking change. We've had complaints every time we've changed the site layout. However, I'm certainly willing to hear suggestions and think we've been pretty flexible as far as incorporating new elements.

As far as the tutorials/help, it seems to me that if a person is confused, the first thing they'll do is click on the "help" link. That leads to a page that explains where everything is, including a link to the developer site which has tutorials/libraries/demos right at the top. I suppose we could put more information in the BYOND Help site itself, but if people aren't getting it now, I doubt that'll make much difference.

I agree. Just be more adaptive.
May 16 2008, 9:26 am
In response to Lummox JR
Lummox JR wrote:
Cavern wrote:
What I noticed is, is that when you guys advertise BYOND (even on the front page) you advertise it with board games, etc. and people do not really want to join a community thinking it only provides board games. If you show shooter games, action/adventure games, and the likes, I guarantee you we will have people pouring into the website.

I don't buy this as a legitimate problem though. If anything we want more gamers of the board/card/strategy variety, so this is a good thing. These are also BYOND's strongest suit.

I am not saying I do not like Last Robot Standing, Incursion, and other board games on here, don't get me wrong. I love those games, but the fact of the matter is, people curious about this website will see that, and probably leave. Those games are being advertised everywhere. If they were to see some nice shoot'em'up and action/adventure games, they would probably join in a second.

I think that's only true of people who are especially into action/shooter games, and those aren't exactly hidden. Anyone checking out the games page is gonna see we have an action genre and they'll quickly see a whole host of games there.

Lummox JR

I think byond has to emphasize its two most important features: The games are highly multiplayer, and you can create your own games. Those to me and most people I know are the most important aspects.

I won't play a game anymore if it doesnt have an online aspect.
May 16 2008, 9:28 am
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
Airjoe wrote:
You guys should try and start to implement some basic SEO, meta descriptions/keywords, better titles, h1 tags, etc.

Last month we ran through the site and optimized as much as we could. Notice the new titles on the high-traffic pages, spammier descriptions, etc. They've helped our placement a bit, but with so many sites out there it's not a trivial task to get a high ranking.

Yea but there are two things byond has that all those competitors suck at, the multiplayer online aspect is a huge one. The ease of making your own games is the second one. Thats all I know though, how to work with those two strengths is another thing itself.

UGH my game only has 75 players online! I realize thats a lot and the 3rd highest on byond right now but there arent enough people to screw with for my advanced tastes!!! Occasionally I like going on their and releasing the diahrrea plague or the Michael Jackson virus and watch it spread among players as they desperately run for their lives from their plagued colleagues
May 16 2008, 9:31 am
In response to Dragonn
Dragonn wrote:
I think byond has to emphasize its two most important features: The games are highly multiplayer, and you can create your own games. Those to me and most people I know are the most important aspects.

I won't play a game anymore if it doesnt have an online aspect.

We are emphasizing those things. We'd like them emphasized to more people besides just our own community, though.

Lummox JR
May 16 2008, 10:00 am
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
As far as the tutorials/help, it seems to me that if a person is confused, the first thing they'll do is click on the "help" link. That leads to a page that explains where everything is, including a link to the developer site which has tutorials/libraries/demos right at the top. I suppose we could put more information in the BYOND Help site itself, but if people aren't getting it now, I doubt that'll make much difference.

There lies the problem. People will generally go to "Help" if they can't register, aren't getting email verification, the software won't install, etc. Something like "Tutorials" Is not something people will look under "Help" for, when theres a "Developers" Category left of it.

If you're goal is to get people to stick around and create games, that information should be readily available, not buried a few links deep. The more clicks it takes to get to something, the less likely people are to stick around to get to it. It's basic web site building and marketing. Things need to be clearly available, and easy to find.

The old site Everything you could possibly need was at your fingertips on the sidebar. The developers site was similar, just instead of the games list there was the demo/library/etc. links. The Top bar is fine, theres nothing wrong with it. The problem is with the site itself and how it's layed out and organized.
May 16 2008, 10:08 am
In response to Nick231
Nick231 wrote:
The old site Everything you could possibly need was at your fingertips on the sidebar. The developers site was similar, just instead of the games list there was the demo/library/etc. links. The Top bar is fine, theres nothing wrong with it. The problem is with the site itself and how it's layed out and organized.

It sounds to me that you want the tutorials (libraries, etc) to be more visible. I suppose we could list them under the "Developers" header (where the Guide and Reference are).

I happen to like this layout a lot more than the old one, largely because it is consistent. The links are IMO logical (as a newbie developer I'd click on either "Developer" or "Help" to get started, and those pages have plenty of info). The old site had stuff changing from page to page. I also think the alert system is really convenient for tracking responses (I use it all the time). We do have some "dead" space that we use for ads-- but those are necessary because they bring in some money that aids development.
May 16 2008, 10:13 am
In response to Ter13
Ter13 wrote:
I advertised on more than a few websites, most recently a Roguelike community, and a HL2 modding community. They pretty much just laugh about BYOND, or end up banning me for "hidden referral links".

The referral system that BYOND uses is widely frowned upon by most gaming communities out there, not to mention that people seem to say: "I'll just go learn C++!", and then fail miserably at it, and give up on game design altogether.

Advertising in other communities is also extremely looked down upon. I have been banned from a few forums for it as well. =/ I've been advertising for about two years, and never ONCE have I seen even a single Referral come my way. =/

I can understand this. Probably it's best to advertise individual BYOND games (with the banner referrals) in sites that have a forum for such things. But until we get a real hit outside of Anime, I'm afraid we're not going to see an explosion in players, despite having the infrastructure to handle them now.
May 16 2008, 10:38 am
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
Nick231 wrote:
The old site Everything you could possibly need was at your fingertips on the sidebar. The developers site was similar, just instead of the games list there was the demo/library/etc. links. The Top bar is fine, theres nothing wrong with it. The problem is with the site itself and how it's layed out and organized.

It sounds to me that you want the tutorials (libraries, etc) to be more visible. I suppose we could list them under the "Developers" header (where the Guide and Reference are).

Like I said, things are hidden away with the current layout, important things should be nice and clearly visible without having to dig around for it.

I happen to like this layout a lot more than the old one, largely because it is consistent. The links are IMO logical (as a newbie developer I'd click on either "Developer" or "Help" to get started, and those pages have plenty of info). The old site had stuff changing from page to page. I also think the alert system is really convenient for tracking responses (I use it all the time). We do have some "dead" space that we use for ads-- but those are necessary because they bring in some money that aids development.

Theres nothing wrong with the navigation bar at the top of the page, it is good to have, things like alert system are really great. The problem comes in that it's all thats there. This site now, not only has things changing from page to page, but most of the pages themselves are completely different sites. One the basic sidebar is at the top right, the next it's on the left, the next there is no navbar and rather the page is in itself one big navbar.

The current sidebar, is more or less wasted space that could be much better utilized displaying useful information rather than what it displays currently.

As far as the ads go, ads are fine as long as they are worked into the layout and not just arbitrarily thrown in (which on this site they're not really).
May 16 2008, 10:39 am
In response to Nick231
i know a place that has several thousand programmers O.o

if i like, referred BYOND there would i get anything lol
May 16 2008, 10:50 am
In response to Lummox JR
Lummox JR wrote:
We are emphasizing those things. We'd like them emphasized to more people besides just our own community, though.


What he means is, you should advertise the action/adventure games more than the board games. Pretty much what I was saying before. The reason he is saying this, is because when you advertise online board games, you would think it is only fit for 2 - 5 people. If I was new, and decided to check out this website today, I would probably shrug it off and leave. But, if I saw an action/shooter game, and read that I would be able to create one of my own that can handle 50 or more players in it, I would join in an instant.

I know you are trying to attract a more intelligent, and mature audience from advertising your board games, but those same people still like RPG's. Most of the more mature part of the community started off playing in the Anime section. When I joined back in 2000, it was because of a DragonBall game. I can admit that, and I know for a fact some of the best programmers in this community joined because of an Anime game as well.

If people came to this website, and without browsing through 20 pages, and thousands of paragraphs to finally realize they can create an RPG that can handle over 100 players, the community would be ten times the size it is right now, and the action/RPG section would be flourishing, perhaps more than the Anime section. And the best part is, all of the games would be original.
May 16 2008, 10:58 am
In response to Cavern
Cavern wrote:
If people came to this website, and without browsing through 20 pages, and thousands of paragraphs to finally realize they can create an RPG that can handle over 100 players, the community would be ten times the size it is right now, and the action/RPG section would be flourishing, perhaps more than the Anime section. And the best part is, all of the games would be original.

I am open to suggestions. As it is right now, the Start page (first thing anyone sees) mentions that BYOND can be used for all sorts of games (including RPGs) and has a banner for an RPG game right at the top. Clicking on the link ("hundreds of games") in the very first paragraph leads to a page that shows many RPGs (including a whole RPG section). I'm not trying to be defensive here, but I am not sure what more we can do to emphasize BYOND's capabilities.
May 16 2008, 11:03 am
In response to Tom
.> wait wait, if i link this site to a place that has tonsa people on actively, does that mean i get a reward lol
May 16 2008, 12:02 pm
In response to Eternal Desire
Eternal Desire wrote:
.> wait wait, if i link this site to a place that has tonsa people on actively, does that mean i get a reward lol

No.
May 16 2008, 2:31 pm
In response to Alathon
well reading the posts everyone wrote i began thinking going to a high-school and im active in my small connecticut community i began to wonder if making like flyers or something for the school would be a good idea =P im also the tech producer(first freshmen to be tech producer in 7 years) on what we call WHHS AM our morning school show for latest announcements =D im sure this would help the community
May 16 2008, 5:06 pm
In response to Tom
I see some pages have better titles, but even http://www.byond.com/?page=Start doesn't have a meta description or keywords tag. Even if you do the important ones manually and then have the rest pick from a dynamic list and save them, I'd imagine it'd be much better than what you've got now. Let hub owners set their own meta tags. Forum posts could pick some from a preset list, and the rest from the post itself.

Just some ideas. I'm no SEO king, but I've seen that using meta tags and h1 tags for my own computer repair business site and my web design clients' sites have really helped up our ranking.
May 16 2008, 5:47 pm
In response to Nick231
Nick231 wrote:
There lies the problem. People will generally go to "Help" if they can't register, aren't getting email verification, the software won't install, etc. Something like "Tutorials" Is not something people will look under "Help" for, when theres a "Developers" Category left of it.

You're mistaken. We've had a small few requests for tutorial links and whatnot.
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