ID:18250
 
Keywords: design, haven
Back in '99 when I first conceived of Haven (it still had the exact same delusions of grandeur it has today, albeit in a less polished form, and with a different name ;-)), the game had eight base attributes:

Strength
Perception
Intelligence
Charisma
Dexterity
Wisdom
Constitution
Endurance

There was no real pattern to those attributes, and their intended ranges were from 1 through 10 for normal humans.

After playing Jagged Alliance 2, I realised that a percentile-based attribute system seemed more appropriate because it allowed a greater range of flexibility and subtle distinction. Also, it allowed the human mean distribution to be coaxed a little more into a more reasonable bound; the average human in Haven has an average score of 55 in any attribute, with a low bound of 35 and an upper bound of 75 on the average (rare exceptions outside of this distribution exist). People familiar with Jagged Alliance 2 will undoubtedly recognise these numbers as being almost exactly similar to those of that game.

I still continued with the old attributes, but after making fundamental changes to the game which closely linked the supernatural with the natural, I implemented a new series of attributes, carefully chosen because they made a progression from pure physique, to pure intellectuality, and then further to pure spiritual strength:

Strength
Endurance
Agility
Reflexes
Perception
Intellect
Learning
Intuition
Charisma
Fortune

These attributes served rather well because they also allowed me to make complex "skill bases" roughly based from the Mechwarrior 2nd Edition RPG system:

Physical = 100 - (280 - (Strength + Agility + Reflexes))
Mental = 100 - (280 - (Learning + Intellect + Intuition))
Athletic = 100 - (280 - (Strength + Agility + Endurance))
Social = 100 - (280 - (Fortune + Intellect + Charisma))
Tactical = 100 - (280 - (Intuition + Learning + Perception))

A physical skill, for instance, was a skill which required fine-tuned physical endurance, like Heavy Armour or most other melee combat skills. A mental skill subtended just about every knowledge skill in existence. Athletic skills were skills which required gross (as opposed to fine) physical effort, like Quarrying, Mining, and Running. Social skills were for things like Administration and Appraisal. Finally, Tactical skills were the basis of most "skilled" combat (as opposed to "instinctive" combat), especially ranged combat and dodging.

However, I ran into a wall here: these skill bases, a holdover from the Digitalia RPG system (which ultimately imploded due to a lack of interest on my part) which had quite a lot in common with Mechwarrior 2nd Edition, applied much better to tabletop gaming than they did to an online, player-centric roleplaying game. It was nearly impossible to find a good use for the Social skill base, for instance: if all of the important social interactions are those that happen between players, what's the point of having a skill to guide them? Furthermore, how can you convince a player on the other end of a connection that what you said was not a lie by making a skill roll? I haven't yet discovered how to mentally control players (but you will rue the day!), so that meant the Social skill base was almost completely worthless except in rare instances.

Other attributes, like Charisma, were used for multiple purposes; the Charisma attribute could be loosely defined as your "force of personality", or better still as your "force of unique existence". For instance, a spell that tried to disintegrate you into constituent atoms would have to bust its way through your willingness to live before it could make the necessary steps to snuff you out. Charisma did this nicely, but the problem was that charisma also subtended physical beauty, and there was no way to have an ugly hero who could not be daunted, or a beautiful but completely vacuous blonde. ;-)

I finally played a game made by Troika Games (who are spending their current days toying with vampires) called Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura. I'm sure almost all of the Fallout fan community has heard of this game, but for those who haven't, Arcanum is a perhaps-too-epic steampunk RPG in the same style as Fallout (Troika Games was the independent upstart after Interplay disbanded 14 Degrees East and Black Isle) where a technological society collides with a magical society — exactly what I had in mind for Haven since the last first quarter of its development! After playing it for a while, however, only one thing particularly struck me about Arcanum (aside from its very excellent atmosphere and less than stellar game balance): it had a clear separation between Body and Mind, with each of its attributes making up pairs: your body's strength was your Strength attribute, while your mind's strength was your Intellect attribute.

Being the clever sap that I am, I cheerfully stole this, smacked it around a bit, and came up with the following twelve attributes for Haven:

_           _   BODY    _   MIND    _   SOUL    _
|ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ|ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ|ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ|ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ|
| POWER     | Strength  | Intellect | Luck      |
| RESISTANCE| Toughness | Willpower | Spirit    |
| FINESSE   | Dexterity | Perception| Guile     |
| APPEARANCE| Beauty    | Judgement | Charisma  |
|___________|___________|___________|___________|
|           |           |           |           |
| RESERVES  | Health    | Energy    | Mana      |
|___________|___________|___________|___________|





STRENGTH - Power of the Body - St
Strength is your raw physical power. It allows you to exert force on your world.

Your strength score determines:

* Your health score.
* Your carrying capacity.
* Your melee and thrown-weapon damage.
* Your throwing range.
* Your movement speed.

If you fail a strength test, you will be unable to perform the feat of strength you attempted. A critical failure will generally mean that you tear a muscle and suffer a considerable penalty to your strength score until it heals.

If your strength is reduced to zero, you collapse and become helpless and immobile.

TOUGHNESS - Resistance of the Body - To
Toughness is your body's tightness. It allows you to withstand any forces that the world puts upon you. Additionally, it represents your body's natural immune system.

Your toughness score determines:

* Your health score.
* Your poison and disease resistance.
* Your damage resistance.

If you fail a toughness test, you will probably be hurt -- your body was not capable of withstanding the punishment given to it -- though this depends on the nature of what you are resisting. If you critically fail a toughness test, this typically means you are rendered unconscious or killed outright.

If your toughness is reduced to zero, you die. Your body withers and all life processes cessate.

DEXTERITY - Finesse of the Body - Dx
Dexterity is the body's coordination and agility. It allows you to move quickly and precisely.

Your dexterity score determines:

* Your movement speed.
* Your action speed.
* Your evade rating.
* Your throwing range.
* Your melee accuracy.

If you fail a dexterity test, you will typically fall or drop your weapon, depending on the circumstance involved.

If your dexterity is reduced to zero, you collapse and become helpless and immobile.

BEAUTY - Appearance of the Body - Be
Beauty is the body's physical attractiveness, and your natural inclination towards being hygienic. It impresses people you meet and makes you desirable to be around.

Your beauty score determines:

* Initial reactions from beings you meet.

If you fail a beauty test, no adverse effects will typically happen, other than the disappointment of the onlooker. If you critically fail a beauty test, the onlooker will find you repulsive.

If your beauty is reduced to zero, you suffer no direct adverse effects, but will probably be attacked by every creature you see: they would mistake you for a beast of purest evil if they were good, and would find you too horrid to be worthy of life if they were evil.


INTELLECT - Power of the Mind - In
Intellect is the mind's ability to acquire and access information.

Your intellect score determines:

* Your spell learning rate.
* Your rate of skill progress.
* Your mana reserves.

If you fail an intellect test, you will become frustrated, but will otherwise suffer no adverse effects. If you critically fail an intellect test, you will likely be incapable of doing that action ever again out of the sheer frustration it causes you!

If your intellect is reduced to zero, your brain ceases to function; you are dead.

WILLPOWER - Resistance of the Mind - Wi
Your willpower score determines:

* Your resistance to stunning, magic, and mental effects.
* Your damage resistance.
* Your mana reserves.

If you fail a willpower test, you will be stunned, enchanted, or bewildered, as the circumstance dictates. If you critically fail a willpower test, this stun, enchantment, or bewilderment will be many times worse.

If your willpower is reduced to zero, you fall into a coma.

PERCEPTION - Finesse of the Mind - Pe
Your perception score determines:

* Your sight range.
* Your ranged accuracy.
* Your missile weapon range.
* Your throwing range.
* Your ability to avoid traps and other surprises.
* Your action speed.

If you fail a perception test, you will simply fail to perceive the object or situation that you should have seen.

If your perception is reduced to zero, you lose all of your senses and collapse helplessly into a coma.

JUDGEMENT - Appearance of the Mind - Ju
Judgement reflects your overall humility as well as your ability to conduct reasoning and decisions. It also represents how tolerant you are of infirmities and vices in others.

Your judgement score determines:

* Your memory and mnemonic ability.
* Your resistance to social manipulation and mental magic.
* Your mana reserves.

If you fail a judgement test, you will be incapable of producing an educated decision, will appear foolish, or will be deceived. If you critically fail a judgement test, not only will this happen, but you will also likely do something monumentally stupid to boot.

If your judgement is reduced to zero, you fall into a comatose state, wracked with nightmares.


LUCK - Power of the Soul - Lu
Your luck score determines:

* Your evade rating.
* Your overall fortune or misfortune.
* Your inclination to find treasure.

If you fail a luck test, something bad will happen. If you critically fail a luck test, that bad "something" will result in actual injury to you.

If your luck is reduced to zero, the very next adverse thing that happens to you will be fatal.

SPIRIT - Resistance of the Soul - Sp
Spirit, in addition to subtending the category of bravery, also determines your natural ability to bear great loss or pain and remain cogent.

Your spirit score determines:

* Your health score.
* Your resistance to stunning, magic, and mental effects.
* Your bravery.
* Your mana reserves.
* Your movement speed.

If you fail a spirit test, you are disheartened or frightened, and will collapse in melancholy or run in terror. If you critically fail a spirit test, you become a broken shell or become suicidal...

If your spirit is reduced to zero, your soul is consumed. You collapse as a lifeless husk.

GUILE - Finesse of the Soul - Gu
Being clever has nothing to do with the mind, but rather with the soul. Guile represents this cleverness, and subtends your wit, your ability to precognate various reactions, and your tendency to simply "get" something.

Your guile score determines:

* Your ability to avoid traps and other surprises.
* Your rate of skill progress.
* Your melee and thrown-weapon damage.
* Your action speed.

If you fail a guile test, you do something really stupid. If you critically fail a guile test, the stupid thing you do will result in personal injury.

If your guile is reduced to zero, you become catatonic and helpless.

CHARISMA - Appearance of the Soul - Ch
Charisma represents your strength of conviction and your certainty in your beliefs. A high charisma score will attract people to your leadership, even if your ideas are flawed; you are exceedingly convincing. (There can be no question that Hitler had a massive Charisma score, even though his Judgement score was terrible.)

Your charisma score determines:

* Your NPC companions' loyalty.
* Your resistance to personality magic and social manipulation.

If you fail a charisma test, the person you are conversing with is not impressed. If you critically fail a charisma test, the person you are conversing with will dislike you from that point on.

If your charisma is reduced to zero, you become a broken shell of a person and no longer care to preserve your life -- you will stand in helpless melancholy until you starve or are slain.




A large number of these attributes subtend the aspect of "Appearance", which is a new quality. What effect does appearance have on players?

Well, not much, per se. But beautiful women really are beautiful, now, and ugly men really are ugly. NPCs will react as such, and good roleplayers will probably react as such.

Appearance does have some subtle effects on people, even player-roleplayed characters, in that it increases their overall comfort score checked against their local environment. Someone feels better when they're near someone who is attractive, even if they get nervous or whatnot (which is up to them to roleplay). This appearance is irrespective of gender -- aesthetically, an attractive male is no different than an attractive female, as aestheticism, platonicism, and eroticism are highly different subjects.
Can you post a condensed version of that? I can't be assed to read all that. :/

Edit: The bits and peices I read whist skimming through seem a bit interesting though, I might read it later.
Good stuff. :) Farm Girl Elly is definitely a vacuous blonde type (she also believes herself to be Queen but that is another story).

If your luck is reduced to zero, the very next adverse thing that happens to you will be fatal.

Very Final Destination.
Hrm, I am having trouble understanding why some of the attributes are not interdependant. For example, practically it is next to impossible to separate out what you have defined as Strength and Toughness, since strength seems to incorporate aerobic capacity and general stamina as well as muscular power and also some degree of willpower and concentration (feats of strength are often just as mental as physical). Same goes for Dexterity which includes agility, which is directly linked to muscle training and focus, as well as manual dexterity and fine motor skills. It also seems odd that physical beauty is not linked to these stats (so a weakling, no endurance, sickly clumsy human could still be stunningly beautiful).

Intellect and Judgement seem to be very overlapping as well- learning speed is often based directly on comprehension and memorization capacity. And that's not even counting manual and physical learning! Guile also seems very similar to Judgement (and both seem to bee a derivative of perceptual ability). Likewise I have a hard time accepting loyalty (which is generally built by actions that build trust) relying on charisma! Hitler, for example, is often regarded as charismatic, but many of his closest generals turned against him thanks to his actions.

I suppose many of these critiques apply to attribute systems in general, but I think trying to separate out and numerically rate things too specifically is a self defeating prospect, especially when all RPGs acknowledge a significant variable unknown factor (usually demonstrated by a dice roll). Some abstraction doesn't hurt, but getting too complex can often make a game cumbersome. I support the maxim that all systems should be as simple as possible and that complexity should arise based on interactions of the systems, preferably due to meaningful player decisions.
Quite a few of the attributes are in fact interdependent: particularly, skill bases and derived statistics often use as many as five attributes to determine their levels. Dead-lifting, for instance, is based on the Carrying skill, which uses Strength, Toughness, Willpower, and Spirit to determine how well you can dead-lift. Attributes in Haven are always used almost exclusively for derived statistics and skills, with "attribute tests" being reserved for brute punishment in most case (e.g., an Intellect test would apply to being confused by a complicated shifting puzzle; such an attribute test not apply to being able to count a large number of objects, which is its own skill (usually deterministic, but you can also make random rolls in order to attempt to count large numbers of objects exactly)).


I find the "stunningly beautiful" definition better fits someone like Calista Flockheart, who is in fact a weakling, no-endurance, sickly clumsy human. =) I don't personally find her attractive because I feel as though strength, endurance, and dexterousness are all important factors for my ideal filly... but Ms. Flockheart wouldn't have been in show biz if at least a goodly percentage of people didn't find her pretty.


Judgement is defined in short form as "the ability to appear wise". Guile, on the other hand, is "the ability to be clever and creative". Perception is "the ability to use your senses".


The primary reason I adopted this system is that it makes it so much easier to come to a conclusion on what attributes exactly should be used as the bases for a given skill. For instance, Mining is very obviously a large portion of physical effort, so Power of the Body (Strength) is a given. Mining also requires a good amount of intellectual finesse and perceptive ability to know the best ways to make the rock crumble, so Finesse of the Mind (Perception) is also important. Etc., etc.


Admittedly, the only complaint I have with my own modern attribute system is that I downgraded the "Reflexes" and "Agility" attributes into a single "Dexterity" attribute, with some portions of the original Reflexes stat being migrated into Perception.