Kaioken wrote:
you need to find better ways to enlarge BYOND's community than starting to teach random subjects in it, or whatever you have in mind. Remember this site is about BYOND, not pixel art or whatever. It wouldn't exactly call it random, pixel art is commonly needed when creating a game on Byond. Why not send people away to learn C++ or another language more widely used in games development. | |
Kaioken wrote:
Pmitch wrote: Yes, im sure that just sticking with the programming side of things instead of delving into everything that can be done on byond will do WONDERS for increasing BYOND's community. I had no idea that teaching how to make good game art (not to mention how to use DMs icon editor for different art techniques), was a "random subject" that should more or less, not be bothered with. | |
Pmitch wrote:
Yes, im sure that just sticking with the programming side of things instead of delving into everything that can be done on byond will do WONDERS for increasing BYOND's community. It really won't help to show off the words "pixel art" on the front page, either. Sure, BYOND will show up in search engine results for pixel art then - on a very buried, 10+ page that is, that nobody checks anyway. Instead of shoving in semi-related subjects, BYOND needs more publicity in what it's really for - making and playing games. We've got an art guild - why do you need more? Again, this isn't an art site, and I doubt Dan-Tom want to change it to one. I had no idea that teaching how to make good game art (not to mention how to use DMs icon editor for different art techniques), was a "random subject" that should more or less, not be bothered with. It's related, but so are tons of other subjects. Doesn't mean you should bloat the site with them. As for Dream Maker's icon editor, you're meant to use an external, more in-depth, specialized (surprise) program for your 'serious GFXing' instead. But that editor is as-hinted simple, and doesn't need much explaining anyway - not that I do complex pixel art. | |
Kaioken wrote:
Pmitch wrote: Pixel art is right behind programming in importance for a game. I dont know why your treating it as if its not important. BYOND is not strictly programming, its for game making, as you said. And programming is NOT all it takes to make a good game. (a mud maybe, but we all know that those arent what the majority of gamers want.) | |
Kaioken wrote:
It's related, but so are tons of other subjects. Doesn't mean you should bloat the site with them. No, but developing a community of artists who are familiar with BYOND, its games and its community is important. Game development has several aspects to it, and just like programming 'theoretically' doesn't need a community about it, art doesn't either. The fact that you can reach out to graphics artists who are familiar with the system is a positive. I don't see how you could ever consider that 'needless bloat'. And I don't see how the fact that there are other websites with better teaching resources for art has any relevance at all to having an active, published Art guild and associated community. Sure, other websites/programming languages/communities do it different. But when has that ever been a reason for anything? | |
How about a Guild Search somewhere, as well as an option in the guild settings to provide additional key words for the search to pick up on?
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Alathon wrote:
No, but developing a community of artists who are familiar with BYOND, its games and its community is important. Okay, and that's why we've got our unofficial Art Society guild. What seems to be the problem? We don't have to bloat the rest of the site with links to graphics and graphics techniques too. | |
<font color = tan>Kaioken wrote:
(You're kind of mixing up the different menus - there's one for 'Games', and one for 'Developers'. Of course you don't need the stuff on 'Games' to make games, but on 'Developers') </font color = tan> You came to this conclusion how? The only thing mixed up here seems to be your concept in this thread. Tiberath made a post for people who have similar issues such as yourself. http://www.byond.com/members/ Tiberath?command=view_post&post=48851. Observe how DM and Pixel art are that much more essential for making a game. Information that branches off these two main essentials does not need to be front paged. <font color = tan>>Newcomers don't need the BYOND site to learn graphics art, either. There are better, specialized sites for that with bigger communities, unlike with Dream Makers, where BYOND.com is really the only real place for getting help with Dream Maker - just so you guys see it's not equivalent to the art guild at all, to be frank.</font color = tan> Who said or implied these two were equivalent in byond? You're just passing around random facts with that serve no purpose. Regardless of "facts", your philosophy is flawed because you can clearly see how graphics are a downside to byond and another cause to why our games are difficult to advertise. You're not wrong, those are correct facts you made. But your ideals are flawed, considering your mentality is "Pixel art shouldn't even be up there because it's not equivalent", thats completely wrong because it is equally important for game development. If people like you stopped thinking "BYOND" and started thinking on more universal terms about what outsiders would be interested in we might get somewhere. For christsake read Xooxers post, truth is the real world just doesn't like low quality. <font color = teal>As a 12 year child I recall showing some of my friends "Proelium" they then laughed at me and said "haha, Kevins playing that paper game again". Although they did enjoy zeta, despite the fact that Proelium is better they gave zeta a chance because it looked visually appealing. Thus, it's easier to "advertise". </font color = tan>We're trying to make this site more suitable we don't need to make our users go running all over the Internet for the basic needs of game development. Why in the world would you reply like that? This is BYOND. Pixeljoint is NOT BYOND, Pixelation is NOT BYOND. If we keep linking people across the net how are WE ever going to improve? We need as many reasons or possibilities to get recognized as possible. Leave the box you're in behind and think outside of it. <font color = tan>>Sure, if you can get people here and teach them that's all good and dandy. I was noting the fact there are more specialized sites for this, that can probably teach and discuss it 'more easily', though. Which also lowers the chance of people coming to BYOND solely for learning how to use pixel art instead of actually coming for the sake of playing/developing in BYOND first - if they want to just learn pixel art or whatever, they'll go to pixel art sites, not automagically appear on BYOND instead. Just common sense - you need to find better ways to enlarge BYOND's community than starting to teach random subjects in it, or whatever you have in mind. Remember this site is about BYOND, not pixel art or whatever. </font color = tan> The purpose of the Byond Art Society guild is to unite ALL individuals with virtu on BYOND (The artists of Byond can't do that if your objective is to divide us and send us all over the place). To educate them to utilize and wield their craft to a greater value. Interesting enough, half the people I've met on Byond had no clue where these other pixel sites were until they were shown to them AT the art society. It's a place they to learn anything about pixel art because we basically end up directing them in all the "better places" anyway! So your argument is pointless. <font color = teal>As a kid I loved art, i liked drawing IRL and like many children I wasn't the most savy kid there was; I'm lucky enough I found Byond to begin with. But if there was a pixel site from the start with other artists all getting together and motivating each other. I damn sure know It wouldn't have taken me 5 years to find out I could pixel.</font color = teal> Clearly if we promote these kinds of habits we may be able to unlock alot more talent in players who have hidden ability and end our talent drought. <font color = tan>>It really won't help to show off the words "pixel art" on the front page, either. Sure, BYOND will show up in search engine results for pixel art then - on a very buried, 10+ page that is, that nobody checks anyway. Instead of shoving in semi-related subjects, BYOND needs more publicity in what it's really for - making and playing games. We've got an art guild - why do you need more? Again, this isn't an art site, and I doubt Dan-Tom want to change it to one.</font color = tan> Dan said he's willing to take suggestions (infact, he damn well requested them) and do whatever he can to make this place more advertisable and again you fail to see the main concept behind this thread. We want more people in order to make BYOND more successful. As for "what will pixel art on the front page do?" Kaioken I already answered you. I find it funny you've been avoiding my bullets. You wouldn't get an answer if it shot you in the head ;p. <font color = teal>See TEAL text. Post [link]</font color = teal> <font color = tan>>It's related, but so are tons of other subjects. Doesn't mean you should bloat the site with them. As for Dream Maker's icon editor, you're meant to use an external, more in-depth, specialized (surprise) program for your 'serious GFXing' instead. But that editor is as-hinted simple, and doesn't need much explaining anyway - not that I do complex pixel art.</font color = tan> Pixel art is much more important then those other subjects and plays a bigger role aswell. Anyone who takes their art seriously will use outside software. And newcomers on byond would find out about these "other softwares" alot quicker because at BAS we talk about them. <font color = teal>You obviously don't know too much about art, so I don't see why you bothered putting in your 2 cents in to begin with.</font color = teal> | |
I enjoyed the formatting. (Lay off the line breaks, Schnitzelnagler. ;))
However, the art portion of this thread should probably be over. The link was added to the Developer menu earlier today. It was even changed from "Pixel Art" to the proper "BYOND Art Society" to avoid the problem of people thinking it's only for one medium. =) | |
Whoa, way to post a huge wall of text there just to say "Nu, you're wrong, the Art Society guld is important and I'm biased towards it, kthx". You've even went ahead and made up things I didn't say, and ignore things I have. Seriously, if you're that set on bashing someone, at least Do It Properly. >_>
This is getting off-topic, anyway, and I'm not sure what you're even requesting to change, or if you are. There's a link to the art guild in every page now from the 'main' menu - what more exactly do you want in the 'main page'? | |
ACWraith wrote:
I enjoyed the formatting. (Lay off the line breaks, Schnitzelnagler. ;)) Pale/Lower saturated colors usually look very pleasing to the eyes. To anyone that was confused: Tan - Rubbish. White - Main debate. Teal - Personal/Historical references. I just cant help that I love Kaioken as much as everyone else on the forum. I agree AC. What other methods do you think we could use to improve this place? | |
Kaioken wrote:
Whoa, way to post a huge wall of text there just to say "Nu, you're wrong, the Art Society guld is important and I'm biased towards it, kthx". You've even went ahead and made up things I didn't say, and ignore things I have. Seriously, if you're that set on bashing someone, at least Do It Properly. >_> You've been bringing up that point for 3 months now and I've just ignored it. I finally took the time to gave you all the answers you wanted, the intimidation was unintentional. For the most part I apologize I had heard you were one of byonds decent programmers so I figured you'd be more of the intellectual type. May I "reference" you to an area where you may feel more comfortable? http://www.byond.com/members/BYONDAnime/forum This is getting off-topic, anyway, and I'm not sure what you're even requesting to change, or if you are. There's a link to the art guild in every page now from the 'main' menu - what more exactly do you want in the 'main page'? Honestly? Just trying to show how useless that nitpicking was. | |
SuperAntx wrote:
Kaioken wrote: (No offence to the owners of the guilds I'm about to mention, I know you wouldn't behave like this, it is merely for example) "Hey! How come single player games was sanctioned! My guild Dungeon Crawlers is full of ripe information and should be sanctioned as well!" Ok. Single Player Games and Dungeon Crawlers are now in the Community Tab. "Hey! How come Dungeon Crawlers was sanctioned! MY Board Games guild has just as much to offer!" Okay, Board Games has just been added to the Community Tab. "Hey guys! Don't forget the Roleplayers guild! We're important too!" Fair enough, Roleplayers guild has also been added to the community tab. "Don't forget my Fantasy guild!" And so on. In a short matter of time, we've successfully added: Single Player Games, Dungeon Crawlers, Board Games, Roleplayers and Fantasy guilds to the community tab. A tab with eight links in it, has now been bumped to thirteen. That counts as bloated in my opinion. I don't see what your fond hatred of using the search bar is. It's not impossible, I find things I need rather quickly and easily, when I need them. Perhaps you just don't enter the correct search parameters... Anyway yeah, going out of your way to sanction specific guilds because they have some interest, will lead to people crying elitism. You think Single Player Games should be listed because you like them, I like single player games as well, but I don't think it should be listed. If you do, everyone will start wanting their guilds listed, and that will just result to further arguing for no reason. Also, BYOND Sanction isn't all that important now days. BYOND Chat and BYOND Arcade are both "sanctioned" and they don't make the community tab either. Hell, neither does BYOND Puzzle (I found that one with the site search, just now =D). | |
My main argument was about the art guild, but what I said about single player games is still true. I've come up with an interesting compromise which would allow you to list all the guilds you just mentioned.
I still think search terms in the top bar should carry over to the next page though. | |
SuperAntx wrote:
My main argument was about the art guild, but what I said about single player games is still true. I've come up with an interesting compromise which would allow you to list all the guilds you just mentioned. Your idea is good and I support it. However, it doesn't address the immediate topic of this post: Bringing in more BYOND users. A lot of people here have stated making the website easier to navigate would bring in more users. A compromise for that has been reached by adding Pixel Art and Audiophiles into the top menu bar. However, your idea doesn't address this concern as it's just a bonus for BYOND Members (a good one at that). But it's another good sales pitch, I'll pay it that. =) I still think search terms in the top bar should carry over to the next page though. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. A bit more explanation and chances are, if I get the gist of what you're saying, I'll probably agree. | |
I agree AC. What other methods do you think we could use to improve this place?*GASP* You expect me to do more than nay-saying? Perhaps more me. ;) Well, more of what I do. The BYOND Strategy forums might not see much use. However, the guild has a regular blog column which can both direct players to new games and encourage developers to create their own games. People have to trust that there is always something new on the horizon so they will keep coming back. Meanwhile, those new to an internet site should be able to view filtered content before delving into its forums. Another issue, which I touched upon as I slammed the notion that ego is why teams are not formed, is that of player feedback. People on the developer forums are too quick to say that all games suck and too lazy to form a coherent piece of feedback which could improve a game. Column writers can only say so much before it starts sounding hollow with all of the games they mention. (Honestly, I rarely find the time to play so I'm generally just trying to find and share things I find interesting.) If the audience doesn't care, then the developer moves on and the game is left as it is. Finally, I'm also big on the tag/CSS idea I mentioned earlier. It [would] point out featured games and add easier navigation for resource lists. | |
I was simply explaining how you're wrong in comparing Pixel Art Society to Dream Makers.
Sure, if you can get people here and teach them that's all good and dandy. I was noting the fact there are more specialized sites for this, that can probably teach and discuss it 'more easily', though. Which also lowers the chance of people coming to BYOND solely for learning how to use pixel art instead of actually coming for the sake of playing/developing in BYOND first - if they want to just learn pixel art or whatever, they'll go to pixel art sites, not automagically appear on BYOND instead. Just common sense - you need to find better ways to enlarge BYOND's community than starting to teach random subjects in it, or whatever you have in mind. Remember this site is about BYOND, not pixel art or whatever.