BYOND DM Guide (Book?) (Great Idea to help BYOND!)

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Oct 15 2008, 10:26 pm
In response to Flame Sage
Flame Sage wrote:
Oh my God no.
Just to clarify...
Oct 16 2008, 10:16 pm
In response to Jtgibson
Jtgibson wrote:
As for offering a free guide -- that's what Dream Makers is for. I'd much rather see a legitimate, pay-for guide to attract some people with actual money to BYOND! BYOND is good for the kids and all, but unless BYOND is marketed with the fervor (and toy line) of a Japanese cartoon series, the amount of money coming in from them will be less than nil. We need mature, experienced developers -- in the 16+ age bracket -- to start coming back to BYOND.


As for the guide, I stated my reasons to have some colored pages as well, so, that would make the cost explode to 75$ per book with lulu.

If you say that "kids" can't be a market, projects like Tibia that basically live of just these kids (and offer free content as well) are a miracle, I guess?
(As a sidenote, they have 6 digit profit per year)

As much as I would like to see mature people on BYOND, how would you get them to come here, stay and pay?

And I think you misunderstood me.
I do see money and profit as a goal of BYOND, but I do not think that a book will have a large monetary impact, even if you made an incredible 40$ profit per book, how many do you think you would sell?
On the other hand, if you made next to no profit with the book (like about 1-5$), but it sells a lot more and you can use it for promotion ad to improove BYOND's content, you might get a good amount of people paying 15$ per year.
It's kind of the same concept a big brand uses.
Get less profit per customer, but have more of them and in the end get more over all profit.

So, my key question would be, how you intend to get these paying mature customers to BYOND.
Certainly they won't just drop by because you offer a pay-for guide instead of a free one?
Oct 16 2008, 10:34 pm
In response to Tiberath
Tiberath wrote:
If people would stop spending their days spreading useless, pathetic source rips, we'd be fine. People would learn and eventually grow older (...)

If people would learn and think about the consequences of their actions, taking the hard way willingly, we would not suffer any of the threats that we do suffer now.
There would be no global warming, no pollution, no starving, no hate, no discrimination, no wars.

As much as I hope that humans will one day reconsider, or be stroke by evolution, I can not see that day approaching anytime soon.

And I am unsure if (Dan/Tom/BYOND)s wallet would suvive for that day to come.


Tiberath wrote:
I also agree with JT. If it is rewritten, take the guide away and leave them with the old one. It still teaches the utmost basics, but if they want something more conclusive and up to date, they have to pay. We have Zilal's and Kunarks tutorials to refer people too.

You say you want people to learn and not just rip source.
On the other hand, you want them to pay for the good guide (since if that one would not be better than Zilal's and Kunarks tutorials, I doubt many people would pay for it).
They do not even learn/read now that the DM guide is free, how do you think having to pay would improove that?


Tiberath wrote:
I'm all for the Money To BYOND theory (...)

I have paid for some BYOND memberships and subscribed to some games.
I think I have given BYOND and it's developers more than they had to spend on me (or at least, I hope so, else I'd certainly be willing to pay my part, though, no I won't believe a 1000$ bill :p)
You run in open doors with me when you say BYOND should earn money, but we disagree on the "how to".
Now, I do not know if I'm right, or if you are, but I'm willing to listen to arguments and statistics (not that my opinion would count anyway though ;)).
Oct 17 2008, 4:04 am
In response to Schnitzelnagler
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
I have paid for some BYOND memberships and subscribed to some games.

So have I.

I think I have given BYOND and it's developers more than they had to spend on me (or at least, I hope so, else I'd certainly be willing to pay my part, though, no I won't believe a 1000$ bill :p)

They're constantly spending money for servers, staff wages and whatnot. Providing the service they have for the price they have (free unless you want what many consider to be unnecessary benefits).

You run in open doors with me when you say BYOND should earn money, but we disagree on the "how to".

Well, running in open doors is better than running into closed ones... especially if they're glass, believe me. Actually, I don't run any more. Too many risks associated with running for my liking. It all spawns back to a time when I nearly put my knee through a young child's brain, because my momentum was getting increasingly difficult to control and my ability to stop on command was getting further and further out of my grasp, and he stepped out in front of me. I missed him, at expense to my own health.

Now, I do not know if I'm right, or if you are, but I'm willing to listen to arguments and statistics (not that my opinion would count anyway though ;)).

One thing you need to learn here and now: Everyone who has an intelligent opinion to tell, will no doubt get a voice at sometime or another. Be it directly to the staff themselves, or someone else who will randomly message them with a "Hey! This guy might be onto something!" Never think you're opinion isn't counted somewhere.

--

But that aside, my ideas will no doubt send up red flags, because I've been here for a long time now. I spent the latter half of my teenage years here, met lots of interesting people from all different cultures and made lots of new, intelligent and exciting friends. I'm for giving BYOND everything I can, because without BYOND, I would not be the person I am today. So in my head, I'm indebted for life.
Oct 17 2008, 6:07 am (Edited on Oct 17 2008, 6:12 am)
In response to Jtgibson
I'm not sure I agree with keeping the old guide up and paying for the new one. I'd rather see something like a stripped version of the new guide, if you're going to go that route. Which I'm not sure I even agree with.

The better the guide available either through cash or none, the better tools developers have available. The better tools developers have available, the better it looks for BYOND as a whole. Sure, people with money will buy the guide. But what about those coming to BYOND for the first time, who then skim through the guide and see no notice of any way to modify the interface, sound, image handling and the multitude of things that have been added since that version?

I realize that tutorials on Dream Maker cover all of the missing subjects (and then some) for free, but then that has to be the first place someone new looks. Which I'm not sure it is, if there is a 'DM Guide' link at the top.
Oct 17 2008, 6:46 am
In response to Alathon
So Alathon, want to take up the task of writing a new DM Guide? I'm sure we could pull it off if we tried hard enough, I mean, between us, what can't we do? =)

Anyway, back to the task at hand.

The best and fairest way to do it would probably just have this new guide for sale as a book, and free-release a PDF.

That way, people who are like me and prefer to have things to put on their shelves and tangible objects to read which don't cost a fortune in ink to make, will purchase the guide. And those who are looking for a resource but don't want to pay/can't afford to pay, can download the PDF.

It's a double-play here. People will probably be less inclined to print the guide, because if my mathematics is still worth a grain of salt (probably not...) it's probably worth more to print on your own printer (depending on make, model and the expense of your ink cartridges) than it is to pay for the book (depending on location as well, I imagine). That, and reading a programming book in a PDF is just a pain in the behind. Eventually people will get sick of doing so and purchase the book... or get too frustrated and give up on DM entirely (... why must everything be a gamble these days!?).
Oct 17 2008, 7:20 am
In response to Tiberath
Tiberath wrote:
So Alathon, want to take up the task of writing a new DM Guide? I'm sure we could pull it off if we tried hard enough, I mean, between us, what can't we do? =)
(...)
That way, people who are like me and prefer to have things to put on their shelves and tangible objects to read which don't cost a fortune in ink to make, will purchase the guide. And those who are looking for a resource but don't want to pay/can't afford to pay, can download the PDF.

Like I said I'd love to purchase a well made new BYOND "Blue Book". Actually, as you mentioned motivation and cost, I wonder if a lot of people would be willing to pay a fixed amount in advance, before the work on the book is even started.
That way you'd be sure to have motivated writers and the issue with expanses would be less of a hazzle?
I'd sure be willing to pay 45$ right now (35 + 10 for the shipping ;)) for a book I would only get in like 2-6 month.
Oct 17 2008, 7:40 am
In response to Tiberath
Tiberath wrote:
So Alathon, want to take up the task of writing a new DM Guide?

I actually wrote a book on DM back in 9th grade, as a final exam project for my IT class. Unfortunately, I lost it from my computer and the school didn't keep it. I was probably better at English in 9th grade than I am now, given that I was playing MUDs upwards of 12 hours a day.

All jokes aside, if I felt I had the writing talent and the time I wouldn't mind that at all. If this doesn't get taken up by someone else, then maybe.
Oct 17 2008, 8:43 am
In response to Schnitzelnagler
Schnitzelnagler wrote:
As for the guide, I stated my reasons to have some colored pages as well

Unless "Bragging Rights" is your alternate, you didn't on this thread. ;-)


so, that would make the cost explode to 75$ per book with lulu.

I personally couldn't see any reason to print colour pages with an on-demand printer. I agree that it's just not practical.

However, I'm not quite sure why colour pages would be necessary in any sense other than "because it's pretty". Even greyscale can be quite attractive if done appropriately.

Imagine if we got a few of the Pixel Art Society members to rig up little 4-shade public domain icons and showed a fresh one in the corner of every page.


If you say that "kids" can't be a market, projects like Tibia that basically live of just these kids (and offer free content as well) are a miracle, I guess?
(As a sidenote, they have 6 digit profit per year)

Tibia is an anomaly: it's an example of a highly successful MMO that is independent from a major publisher. It also has a different business model:
1) it's easy to get into and doesn't charge them up-front; players only pay if they want perks,
2) like any MMO, money coming in is based from how much time players can spend, and
3) parents are more likely to pay for children's subscription fees for a game than to a developer network, as a game seems to be a more controlled environment.

This is apples and oranges; the business model that applies to an MMO-type game (self-renewing monthly/annual subscription) isn't at all the same as a model that applies to a software development package (one-time payments for desired products).

BYOND's model, at present, is:
1) easy to play, especially for free, but takes some effort to get into,
2) money coming in is based on convenience and people purchasing products and services, and
3) trying to regulate a social network to ensure that it provides a safe family environment for producing high-quality games.

I suppose if BYOND decided to go for an MSDN route -- annual subscription fees for its premier development resources -- then it'd at least have a similar model to Tibia, but Microsoft has literally millions of skilled developers, whereas BYOND has only multiple hundreds (if that). BYOND would essentially be nickel-and-diming the community to death.


As much as I would like to see mature people on BYOND, how would you get them to come here, stay and pay?

And I think you misunderstood me.
I do see money and profit as a goal of BYOND, but I do not think that a book will have a large monetary impact, even if you made an incredible 40$ profit per book, how many do you think you would sell?

I'm placing it at a few thousand. You do have a point that any profit from a development book is going to be in the $100 to $10 000 range, no more. However, that amount of income would be pretty good for starting off an initial expansion, and could be a foot in the door for BYOND to get some press service, advertising, etc., which would allow BYOND to recoup that with further books, materials, and officially-sponsored developer incentives.

It would, in particular, be an amount of income sufficient enough to allow BYOND to hire some advice from people with genuine entrepreneurial training and/or skill; while I'm sure the majority of BYOND's higher-ups have at least an inkling of how the business world works, none of them are economic experts.

The more I think about this, the more I think that it might be good if someone with a degree of separation from BYOND wrote the guide for their sole profit, with BYOND's blessings: it would send the message that "BYOND doesn't require you to kick back money to them". That alone could attract some capitalist spirit!


On the other hand, if you made next to no profit with the book (like about 1-5$), but it sells a lot more and you can use it for promotion ad to improove BYOND's content, you might get a good amount of people paying 15$ per year.
It's kind of the same concept a big brand uses.
Get less profit per customer, but have more of them and in the end get more over all profit.

Finding the fudge point between sales and price is difficult without having market analysis, of course. Ideally we'd choose the point which maximises profit. Giving away a guide for no profit (not necessarily no cost) might bring in some people, but it's possible that the amount of income from those people would be less than the income we would have earned from selling the product at a higher price.

BYOND has a bottom line to meet, after all, and though BYOND Members covers one developer's salary and one developer's cost of living, it's not enough for BYOND to expand at this point. It needs income, not necessarily more members.


So, my key question would be, how you intend to get these paying mature customers to BYOND.
Certainly they won't just drop by because you offer a pay-for guide instead of a free one?

That's an interesting point. It's about branding and packaging, to some extent. I used to work at Canadian Tire, whose prices were consistently higher than American companies like Wal*Mart. However, people often came in to Canadian Tire because of its association as being a Canadian company, and because the customer service at Canadian Tire was consistently higher than that of Wal*Mart.

If we can convince those people that their dollars would be better spent in a small business like BYOND -- tugging at their heartstrings if you will -- than on a higher-end development package like DarkBASIC or Blitz 3D, then we absolutely would do better to advertise at cost.

I generally come to the conclusion that adults tend not to care so much about price as they do about quality, whereas for children it tends to be the opposite. Thus, as long as the quality meets or exceeds the price we're charging for it, we'd actually get more mature developers while turning away the freeloaders.

All this should be borne in mind with the fact that I didn't take economics classes and I'm not an actuary or anything. ;-)
Oct 17 2008, 10:59 am
In response to Jtgibson
Jtgibson wrote:
Unless "Bragging Rights" is your alternate, you didn't on this thread. ;-)

Hehe, no, I have no whatsoever relation to him, but I had the hope that my hint to comparing the direct competitor(Game Maker)'s book and to indirectly mentioning younger people as customers, eye candy (or colors) would make sense.
I failed, like often enough and beg your pardon.

Unfortunately, (like Hulio-G mentioned in another thread about BYOND games), people (and especially younger customers which seem to make the biggest part of BYOND's community) are easily attracted by colorfull pictures.
And these people are exactly the ones that need the guide.
The others are fine with browsing a reference and taking time, having a good enough frustration level to make their way and develop decent products by their own.


Jtgibson wrote:
1) it's easy to get into and doesn't charge them up-front; players only pay if they want perks

Sounds exactly like BYOND.
Everything is free, unless you want a BYOND membership which will grant you some nice additional features.

Jtgibson wrote:
3) parents are more likely to pay for children's subscription fees for a game than to a developer network, as a game seems to be a more controlled environment.

I do not know about that and I can not claim anything here, since I have neither figures nor examples.
So, I can only argue applying my sense of logic, which I am going to try (and most likely fail again ;)):
If I would have a child, I'd rather pay for something "usefull" than for a game.
Most parents want their children to "learn", be it a foreign language, music, math, as long as they suppose it will later on profit.
And that one, I can state as a fact, since my mother works honorary with children (and their parents).
So, maybe the kids do not beg as persistant for a BYOND membership (or a programming guide) as they do for a "cool game features" and that is why parents are bound to buy one, but not the other?
Or maybe BYOND needs to adverise the positive effect for parents a lot more (after all learning the first steps of a fully functional programming language is a big benefit nowadays in later on life).


Jtgibson wrote:
This is apples and oranges; the business model that applies to an MMO-type game (self-renewing monthly/annual subscription) isn't at all the same as a model that applies to a software development package (one-time payments for desired products).

Weird, here I was thinking I'd have to pay annual for my BYOND Membership, just like the monthly payment in that online game.
I can not see how they differ, offering both free content and time based pay-for features (though, I agree, the features are not alike).


Jtgibson wrote:
I'm placing it at a few thousand. You do have a point that any profit from a development book is going to be in the $100 to $10 000 range, no more. However, that amount of income would be pretty good for starting off an initial expansion, and could be a foot in the door for BYOND to get some press service, advertising, etc., which would allow BYOND to recoup that with further books, materials, and officially-sponsored developer incentives.

The question I have in mind is, how many of the people you get to visit BYOND stay and pay (and anything else is rather a waste for BYOND).
I took it as a sad fact, from the thread about advertising BYOND, that people consider the quality of BYOND games as low and that would be the reason people do not stay.
If that is the case (and only Tom might be able to tell the statistics here, about how many people visit the homepage to never return after a few tries), I thought that free resources and a good guide would be the only measure to change this.
If that has changed (and before someone starts telling me the good games BYOND has to offer, I play them, else I would not be here, but others seem to go more for graphics only ;)), I actually think that with a pure donation campain by BYOND to advertise you could achive more than with a book income.


Jtgibson wrote:
BYOND has a bottom line to meet, after all, and though BYOND Members covers one developer's salary and one developer's cost of living, it's not enough for BYOND to expand at this point. It needs income, not necessarily more members.

In that case, why is Tom eager to attract as many people to BYOND as possible?
Do not more paying members mean more income?
Does a high "customer" base not grant good trades with advertising?


Jtgibson wrote:
I generally come to the conclusion that adults tend not to care so much about price as they do about quality, whereas for children it tends to be the opposite. Thus, as long as the quality meets or exceeds the price we're charging for it, we'd actually get more mature developers while turning away the freeloaders.

My question would be, how much money you could make of these mature developers, since there is strong competition on that market.
Authoring tools aiming for the younger customer however have less competition and a bigger group of potentional customers.


Jtgibson wrote:
All this should be borne in mind with the fact that I didn't take economics classes and I'm not an actuary or anything. ;-)

Same applies for me *smiles*
Oct 17 2008, 4:37 pm
In response to Alathon
Alathon wrote:
All jokes aside, if I felt I had the writing talent and the time I wouldn't mind that at all. If this doesn't get taken up by someone else, then maybe.

Well writing has always been a strong side (just not spelling). All English teachers I've come across who've read anything fictional I've written have always marked it an A or A+.

With non-fiction though, I'm not entirely sure how well I'd pull it off. Writing is easy, explaining things in terms others (especially new people) would understand, probably isn't a very strong point of mine.
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