I hate C++...

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Feb 11 2009, 7:14 am
In response to Schnitzelnagler
"Why would you even need the source code of a library?"

So I can know exactly what its functions do and how to use them better than what the Allegro manual provides. And even alter it to do slightly different things perhaps.

I don't see why you would NOT want to see the source code of a library.

"You are looking for something "not too developed" in order to have a maximum design freedom, yet it should provide you with an easy implementation of exactly what you need."

Almost every 2d RPG, same with any genre of game, seems to have certain generic things that all games of that type would need or use to some extent. If they just had a package with all those generic things already done, perhaps it'd be a lot easier. You may know more about it than me, or you may not (but I doubt it), but that isn't going to stop me from saying my opinions.
Feb 11 2009, 7:15 am
In response to Nubtard
Nubtard wrote:
you do not need to add a ";" to signify there has been a line break, the compiler should just know there was one because, THERE IS ONE. =P

Eh, you do realize it's not a matter of noticing if there was a linebreak (etc) or not; the compiler is aware of them, it just doesn't care and doesn't use them. :P

The most annoying thing of all though, is that a function cannot be called if used further up on the page of where it is defined, because it acts as if you haven't defined it yet.

You can avoid this by defining just the function's name before using it, most commonly in a header file.

Also it would be nice if byond had a "developer chat" or something on the site. But oh well I prefer too much I guess.

Why, it has numerous chat programs, or perhaps more accurately 'BYOND worlds', due to the nature of being able to create a chatroom with one line and all, which is also why having an official BYOND chat (like an IRC server) is considered pointless.
Feb 11 2009, 7:26 am
In response to Nubtard
Considering the literally millions of people in the world who probably know how to program in C++ to some degree (a good number being C programmers), I suspect the syntax is fine. You have to bear in mind a scale difference here. DM is devised and maintained by BYOND, they are the only people that produce applications that execute DMB files. 10000+ or so people use it. C++ and it's parent language C was put together by a draft specification group, to make ISO world standards out of it. There are comfortably 5+ main compilers for C++, which compile C++ into a form suitable for 5+ different sorts of processor. C's first obvious standard was in 1989 and C++'s in 1998. Because of the the sheer size difference, C++ isn't liable to make any sudden changes to the language syntax.

It very much sounds like you don't want to be doing C++, because you don't seem to want to program at that level of abstraction. C++ personally makes reasonable "grammatical sense" to me (spaghetti code notwithstanding) and further to that C++ doesn't really "have" built-in functions, so much as a common library base that you can totally avoid if you really feel the need (For OS development that library isn't available). If there's a problem here, it's your inappropriate choice of language, not the language itself.
Feb 11 2009, 7:33 am
In response to Stephen001
I don't really think scale difference, number of people using it, standards and whatever else would mean in any way having C++ optionally support reading indentation like or similarly to DM. It's also really a compiler thing and less of a language aspect; it also doesn't affect much other than convenience, and standards shouldn't really be a problem unless you intentionally vaporize the old syntax rather than add an optional new one.
Feb 11 2009, 7:37 am
In response to Kaioken
Standards are what allows me to take my source code and compile it under the GNU toolchain on Linux, and Microsoft's C Compiler on Windows and get valid output in both cases. Compilers already fly solo on some issues and it causes no end of headaches for developer. Optional syntax support like that would do for ISO C++ what Microsoft HTML did for W3C compliance. C++ throws enough cross-platform issues at the developer without adding exotic syntax issues too.
Feb 11 2009, 8:01 am
In response to Stephen001
Stephen001 wrote:
Standards are what allows me to take my source code and compile it under the GNU toolchain on Linux, and Microsoft's C Compiler on Windows and get valid output in both cases.

Not everybody requires that. Obviously this is a known individual programmer's job to use compiler-specific features with consideration. I don't think making optional indentation syntax a part of standards would automagically cause um, exotic syntax issues either. It seems to me one so inclined not to use indentation in DM for instance can do so without issues? For the particularly concerned, it is always possible to automatically convert indentation-based code to braces-based if you need compatibility or as such.
Directly reading what the programmer reads just seems a step forward from braces, and more and more languages will probably include that in the future anyway.
Feb 11 2009, 8:30 am
In response to Kaioken
The programmer reads it however they've learned to read it. I couldn't say for sure, but I'd think a majority of C++ programmers read braces syntax without issue. You're of course welcome to recommend this to whoever makes your compiler of choice if you feel it is a compelling addition (and assuming they actually take suggestions). I've got a pretty good idea about what they'll do though. You yield to the language's syntax, if you really don't like it, you use another language. The vast majority of career programmers aren't so obstinate about syntax that they'll throw out a language based on it alone though, should it suit their needs.
Feb 11 2009, 8:48 am
In response to Stephen001
Stephen001 wrote:
The programmer reads it however they've learned to read it. I couldn't say for sure, but I'd think a majority of C++ programmers read braces syntax without issue.

I couldn't say for sure, but I'd think a majority of programmers feel the need to use extraneous indentation in addition to braces syntax when writing their code, which is pretty self-explanatory.
Feb 11 2009, 9:00 am
In response to Kaioken
Once again, you're welcome to take it up with the people who make your C++ compiler of choice if you feel it has merit. It would make a load more sense as a course of action than drawing out this point with me with no real purpose. I'm guessing you won't, though.
Feb 11 2009, 9:11 am
In response to Stephen001
Once again, you're welcome to take it up with the people who make your C++ compiler of choice if you feel it has merit. It would make a load more sense as a course of action than drawing out this point with me with no real purpose. I'm guessing you won't, though.

Heh and I'm sure you'd get quite a lot of apprehension over it much like BYOND did when it was first enforced. Nothing like having prefectly fine compilable code from a previous version generate thousands of errors when trying to compile with the next version!
Feb 11 2009, 9:41 am
In response to Stephen001
Stephen001 wrote:
Once again, you're welcome to take it up with the people who make your C++ compiler of choice if you feel it has merit.

Yes, there's no need to say that twice. Naturally it doesn't belong in a discussion topic multiple times and is my business; I'm not sure why you think making such a statement (twice) has a considerable purpose, since it's a very obvious one.

It would make a load more sense as a course of action than drawing out this point with me with no real purpose.

Huh? I'm not drawing out anything with you, or arguing with you for that matter. If you've perceived the situation as such, you've perceived it wrong; I was quite simply merely stating my opinion, and there's not much to draw out once I've done that. Other than you making uncalled-for comments, I guess.
Feb 11 2009, 11:11 am
How viable is Python for making a game with these attributes:

1) 2d
2) Topdown, similar to a Gameboy Advance RPG
3) Online multiplayer
4) Is marketable. Can I make money from a game made in
Python? (Through monthly/yearly subscription most likely)
4) Has enough speed and capability to (potentially) handle 1000 players on at once. Exclude any conceptions of what sort of server it is hosted on or whatever else, think only of the language capability. I know its interpreted and I heard that can add hinderances.

Is Python (potentially, with a "good" programmer) viable for these goals? Or should I look elsewhere?

I understand Python, it's simple, and I like what I am seeing by comparison to other things. But I don't know its potential capabilities or limitations. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Also, if you know anything that I don't and I didn't bring it up and you think I would like to hear it, go for it please.
Feb 11 2009, 11:20 am
In response to Nubtard
Well, unless you use a tool such as Py2exe to wrap up your python application into a standalone executable, people would need python to run it. Aside from that, it performs reasonably for 2D stuff, the networking capabilities are really not much different to most languages and I think it can be byte-code compiled to speed it up a little. As for marketing, that's entirely up to you. Python isn't a games development and marketing platform like BYOND, it's just a language.
Feb 11 2009, 11:36 am
In response to Stephen001
Stephen001 wrote:
Well, unless you use a tool such as Py2exe to wrap up your python application into a standalone executable, people would need python to run it. Aside from that, it performs reasonably for 2D stuff, the networking capabilities are really not much different to most languages and I think it can be byte-code compiled to speed it up a little. As for marketing, that's entirely up to you. Python isn't a games development and marketing platform like BYOND, it's just a language.

So with Py2exe distributing my game with annoying people will be just as easy as any other stand-alone program right? I just want to clarify that because it is very important.

So what you wrote in general is that "It is capable of the things I need it to do, in the right hands."? I just don't want to misunderstand and choose something that is incapable of accomplishing what I must accomplish.

I favorited Py2exe but the time that I will need it is likely far away.

So far I'm loving the Pygame description of python and it's code syntax examples. It reminds me of byond with its white-space or whatever syntax. Mainly because, the bracket method in C++ and others, is ugly and a waste of space to me.
Feb 11 2009, 11:59 am
In response to Nubtard
Nubtard wrote:
So with Py2exe distributing my game with annoying people will be just as easy as any other stand-alone program right? I just want to clarify that because it is very important.

This sentence makes no sense at all. Please clarify what you're talking about.
Feb 11 2009, 12:00 pm
In response to Nubtard
Yeah, essentially Python will do you fine for a 2D networked game, and a separate dedicated server can be crafted for managing clients, that'd probably scale to 1000+ clients okay. If it doesn't scale for whatever reason, you can split up into several servers that appear as one server to a client. Similarly there is support for a number of database engines, essential for managing the data of 1000+ clients. Py2exe will also allow you to produce (mostly) standalone executables. You have to distribute some DLLs too, but that's not much different from most other languages. You should create an installer to take care of that.

Assuming you can gain the technical know-how on the language and designing these kinds of systems in general (the server in particular), then you'll be fine.
Feb 11 2009, 12:43 pm
In response to Nubtard
C# with XNA is considerably easy for first-time game developers with the C# language. C#, itself, is an easy language, much like DM, and VERY developed.

If C# doesn't interest you (whether that be due to the trivial matters of the garbage collector [when is the data not in use EVER being deleted?] or just pure sluggishness [as C# is quite sluggish in comparison to other languages, this is most noticeable on older machines]), there is always that C++ language you hate, or Python.

For C++ (which I personally recommend), SDL and HGE are very common 2D game libraries/frameworks you can use to develop games. HGE is nice and hardware-accelerated, so that's a plus right there. They are both easy-to-learn, with a bit of tutorials and examples from the community. SDL is perfect for 2D RPGs. I imagine HGE (while more powerful in my opinion) would be a bit more difficult to set up, but still easy nonetheless.

For Python, well... what can I say? There is simply too much information on it to share. There are many game frameworks (the most popular being pyGame) and it is a wonderful language if you can get over it not having any formal variable declarations (I can't!). It is very game-oriented. A downside? It compiles to an easily-decompiled format, tending to keep things open-source. This can not be used to make much money unless you sell the source packaged with the game.

Java and Processing are nice for game development, but slow. Processing is a language programmed in Java and compiled to java bytecode, but with a much more beautiful syntax and has things built-in, much like DM. Processing just may be the programming language that is most similar to DM.
Feb 11 2009, 12:46 pm
In response to Popisfizzy
Popisfizzy wrote:
Nubtard wrote:
So with Py2exe distributing my game with annoying people will be just as easy as any other stand-alone program right? I just want to clarify that because it is very important.

This sentence makes no sense at all. Please clarify what you're talking about.

Not even he knows...
Feb 11 2009, 2:25 pm
Nubtard wrote:
Anyway. I hate C++. I hate the syntax. Its stupid. It annoys me. I don't want to deal with it and its not centered on game creation but rather its centered on being able to do anything. So because of that there is so much uneccessary things about the language and I don't know what is and is not relevant to game creation and...Nobody cares so why continue. Everything about C++ annoys me. The way it looks, the unecessary characters that the syntax forces on you. Everything. It's like, why do I have to put a ";" after each line break, if I put a damn line break it should just KNOW there is a freaking line break. Same for those "{"'s and all that crap. And I have to TELL it when a function is done? Why can't it freaking tell the function is done on its own? Obviously if I left it and went to the next one then the previous one is done. Ugh...

That's what we get for letting byond spoil us with its fancy syntax and game-centered programming. =]
Feb 11 2009, 6:45 pm
In response to Nubtard
Nubtard wrote:
I thought when I download the library, it's going to be the source code of the library. But I find no such thing. I include it in the compiler, but can't FIND it so I can look through the new functions or whatever.

When you download the library, sometimes you get the source code and sometimes you get something that's already been compiled. Either doesn't matter, and the latter tends to be faster to include in your programs, but the problem here is that you just don't know what you're doing. You're downloading the library, but to use the library you need to know how, which is the job of documentation, tutorials, examples, and books.

Like with Allegro, I downloaded Allegro through the compiler, and included Allegro, but I can't FIND Allegro.

Like with any library, you download it, include it, and practice learning how to use it. Consult documentation, or books (you'll notice the book I linked to in [link] is listed first here, and I'll quote myself: "If you really want to try for this, invest in some books and learn the old-fashioned way.").
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