Hey guys,
Sariat checking in. As some of you know I have my own business and I really haven't done anything BYOND related since 2003/2004. So for those who don't know me, my claim to fame was Super Hero Bash -- basically City of Heroes for BYOND but before City of Heroes existed....
Anyway, some comments: Its great to see BYOND is still getting frequent updates by Dantom (I guess just Tom now...) But its also disappointing to look into the classified ads section and see New DBZ RPG looking for [x]. Also I am very surprised to see that there is no "hit" game. I mean did BYOND really peak in 02-04? Lode Wars, Murder Mansion, My Life As A Spy, Hedgerow Hall, Tanks, SpaceTug, etc?
Now, I am not bashing BYOND, BYOND will ALWAYS have a place in my heart! I love this little guy! But when I joined I was 14, now I am 22 and the world of business and just the world in general has got me thinking bigger and I can't seem to figure out WHY BYOND hasn't made it to the next level? I mean Xbox Live has an arcade where Indie developers release titles it just doesn't make sense to me.
The biggest thing I can't grasp is that why hasn't BYOND -- and I'm not talking about the system, I'm talking about the COMMUNITY -- why haven't we developed a super team? I mean get our best graphics guy, best programmer, etc and make hit games? BYOND is a GREAT tool and I just don't get why. Why? Why? Why? What is missing? What is gonna take this baby to a the next level? I mean its been over 10 years for Dantom -- whats the next step?
Discuss.
ID:181764
 Sep 24 2009, 6:58 am
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Zaole wrote:
i quite often see really wonderful artwork paired up with really awful programmers, and the programmers are so lazy and bad that the game never gets released and all the great artwork gets wasted. Easy solution. Convince these artists to create a good, free art collection, since obviously, I can't. If a bad programmer uses this art, the game will at least shine through eye candy and if a good programmer catches some nice graphics, even better. Not to mention that these graphics should be in dmi format (best released as library and directly linked), with a detailed copyright description and contact (compensation) information, because this way a programmer might actually even find an artist s/he'd like to work with. Through structured easily accessible information and fast contact comes success. Neither of both is the case right now. | |
Sariat wrote:
But its also disappointing to look into the classified ads section and see New DBZ RPG looking for [x]. It was really, really good for a short awhile. Good enough to get me a little paid work. From what I hear the Anime Guild complained about it which caused the moderators to just give up. Instead of BYOND Anime it should just be renamed to BYOND Fangames so there's less of an emphasis on creating more DBZ games. That and Pokemon wouldn't look as weird sitting next to Naruto. | |
I personally believe the main reason why there has yet to be a great game released for a few years is due to the player base of BYOND. A lot of the non anime developers have realized that their work will get no recognition here. You can spend months working on a game with perfected art, sound and game play, yet, you will only get a few dedicated players.
What attracted me to BYOND a few years back was it's immediate community. Granted, it was 2004 at the time and Zeta was the fad. But still, I could create a fun game, promote it on the forums, and I would have gotten around 15 dedicated players. Now, as time has gone on, that community I, and others had, has gradually decreased. A new game that has nothing to do with anime will get 3 to 5 dedicated players. I do not know about you but I'm the jealous type. I see people barley spending time on their anime game and get a huge community, while my projects get left in the dust. | |
Lulz, hey Sariat. I remember you clearly. I used to play SHB a LOT back in the day. It was my favorite game after Spar stopped hosting.
The community is really different from back in 02' & 03'. It was a lot easier back then to get a team together and roll out the new projects. Not too sure on what BYOND's future holds, but it's rather boring right now. | |
In response to the most common response here:
If you build it, they will come. (On a MASSIVE tangent that is bugging the crap out of me: I've been trying to look up who first said that quote. Everywhere I find is saying that the movie field of dreams was the first time, but that doesn't sound right. I thought there was an ancient greek / roman leader who said that in regards to the Colosseum or something. One of the ceasars perhaps. I suppose I'm wrong, but bah!) I understand that people blame the anime games for taking the players, but I really don't feel this is the case. Lets examine a few great games of BYOND: Hedgerow Hall. One of my personal favorites. This game could have over 20 players regularly during the busy part of its life span. Keep in mind that this game is INCREDIBLY specific, holding appeal only to roleplayers, as roleplaying was mandatory. MLAAS: I'm going to be honest here. I didn't like that game. It was fun, don't get me wrong, but I didn't think its design was really "good". Lode Wars: This game has persisted to this day (I saw a game being played a couple of weeks ago) even considering there haven't been ANY updates in a long long long time. SpaceTug: I tried playing this once. Something happened, I had no clue what was going on, so I quit. By the time I went looking for a new game to play, it was no longer hosted. Now, there have been other good games that simply haven't picked up for one reason or another. One of my favorites was YAGSACG. Another thing to look at... Take Castle for example. VERY basic game, VERY simple to program. Repetitive and boring gameplay. Been around for a long time. Imagine what a tower defense game with a bit more ingenuity could do? Another game that fits this mold is SS13. This game was a great concept, that pretty much fell to pieces as the community progressed. But the point is SS13 is still going, and it has a very specific target demographic. I will not say I like the anime games any more than the next guy, but I definitely do NOT blame them for the woes that currently hold BYOND. There are many good programmers out there, and there are even many decent programmers out there. The biggest problem I see is nobody actually finishes projects they start. I talk to many different devs about things they are working on, great ideas that would definitely draw a lot of attention... A few weeks later? They quit. I personally have this problem very severely, and I've been trying to break myself of it by FORCING myself to stay with one project to the end, no matter how much I want to draw my attention elsewhere. I suggest that some other people out there try the same thing, and see where it gets us. | |
at all of the games you mentioned: are they being played right now?
when was the last time they were played? how many people played them? these games you mentioned USED to be popular, and nobody will argue that, but the point is that there is no audience for good games anymore. BYOND's crowd is just a bunch of 8 year olds who enjoy ripped naruto games. "if you build it, they will come" is simply not true on BYOND. there have been good games created recently that received no attention at all simply because there is no audience left (efencea and war of heroes come to mind, despite the latter's control issues) | |
Zaole wrote:
"if you build it, they will come" is simply not true on BYOND. there have been good games created recently that received no attention at all simply because there is no audience left (efencea and war of heroes come to mind, despite the latter's control issues) You also cannot forget SuperSaiyanGokuX released a huge update to Murder Mansion not too long ago. The game gets an average of 2-3 players on at a time. The majority preference for games changed,they rather play an anime game. So what do people do? They cater to the majority. | |
Zaole wrote:
"if you build it, they will come" is simply not true on BYOND. It's just not so true generally. Making something good is a big part of the work, but you can't forget the advertising and marketing parts. You need to actually get the word out about your project and try to get as much people as you can interested in it. Which for a BYOND game also means you need to advertise outside of BYOND's limited community - and then indeed, if your game is worth it and good enough (and is unique or special in enough ways to set it apart from other games), then "they will come". | |
AJX wrote:
Take Castle for example. VERY basic game, VERY simple to program. Repetitive and boring gameplay. Been around for a long time. Imagine what a tower defense game with a bit more ingenuity could do?  Another game that fits this mold is SS13. This game was a great concept, that pretty much fell to pieces as the community progressed. But the point is SS13 is still going, and it has a very specific target demographic. I'd like to see a sequel in the form of a sea lab. | |
Calus CoRPS wrote:
Zaole wrote: I used to play Murder Mansion, but I stopped because the game lost replayability for me. I had no clue there was an update, or I'd probably have hosted a game (when I had fast enough internet) and gotten people together to see what was up. The majority preference for games changed,they rather play an anime game. So what do people do? They cater to the majority. Again this is just a point I have to disagree. There are many people here on the forums who talk about wanting to play good games. Well, if you are really willing to argue with me, why aren't you playing these 'good games'. In regards to War of Heroes: When you said this I immediately went and tried playing it. This is DotA for BYOND. From the short time I spent playing it I simply couldn't get into it because it is too difficult to play for me personally. I'd rather play a round of DotA or League of Legends. My biggest problem with this game is I was thrown in without so much as a 'use your mouse to do stuff' message. I didn't figure out how to learn skills until I started pressing random buttons trying to find global chat. I'm now trying Efencia. These seems like a cool little game. A quick tutorial would be nice, but I figured it out quick enough. A help system or something would probably help people understand what was going on better. While yes, this looks like a well made game that could be fun to play with other people, it just isn't a game *I* like. Nothing against the game, just doesn't really draw me in at all. I suppose the point is this: If you make a good game that nobody wants to play, then there is no point. Finding a good game that holds mass appeal is difficult, but if it wasn't then everyone would do it. | |
AJX wrote:
Calus CoRPS wrote: Yet, when a game is created, no one plays it. Which goes into what I previously said with a small add on. The majority of the people who actually play games on BYOND prefer anime. Why am I not playing these good games right now? It's simple; I do not play games every day. | |
SuperAntx wrote:
Efencea Already suggested. Played, cool, but not replayable for me personally. Calus CoRPS responded to one of my posts, but it got deleted, so I'm putting my response here: Calus CoRPS wrote: This is why I clearly said the majority. The people who want to play NON anime games only are the minority. Also, I'm not an avid video gamer myself, but I do play BYOND games from time to time. I believe that the anime players would play other games if they drew them in. I don't think that the people who play those games are inherently immature little 8 year olds who love DBZ. I played the BYOND DBZ games for quite some time, while still playing the other popular games of the time. I've stopped playing the DBZ games only because that style of game has become extremely boring to me. Don't really know why it wasn't boring to begin with, but meh. Essentially, if you like caste you would more than likely enjoy Efencea. This puzzles me why no one plays the game. It is a cool game, but honestly I like Castle better. I prefer working together with people I can yell at who aren't doing their job, rather than 1v1ing. I'd prefer the choice to do a PVP or PVE scenario, with more than just 1 player on either given side. I'm still in my first and probably only game of Efencea, simply because it doesn't offer enough variety. | |
AJX wrote:
SuperAntx wrote: Judging from a few blog posts from anime fans, I seriously doubt they leave the BYOND Anime territory. Although, I could be completely incorrect. I'm sure there are anime fans who would not mind exploring other genres, but they just do not know which games are good. Either way, the majority of the people who actually play games on BYOND prefer anime. | |
One problem that keeps nagging me about BYOND: Its a gaming community, yet, I hardly play any games here. Why not? I play games elsewhere, why aren't there any BYOND games that I want to play? I'm not even really a fan of visually impressive 3D games, I like simple 2D graphics just as well.
My usual goal is to make a game that I want to play. I have one in mind, its based on The Gauntlet's play mechanics, but it is scenario based like Tomb Explorer. At the moment, I'm struggling to search for ideas that'll make the game more fun, more story-driven, and less empty feeling. | |
AJX wrote:
I'm still in my first and probably only game of Efencea, simply because it doesn't offer enough variety. Efencea isn't finished - it seems to be in a state of limbo at the moment. Its not fair to judge a game that isn't finished, but at the moment, I'm not sure if it ever will be. | |
Zaole wrote:
at all of the games you mentioned: are they being played right now? I thought it was funny, the other day, I thought of a simple game that sounded fun, and I reasoned out what it would take to build it, and after thinking about it for a little while, I realized that the gameplay mechanics were almost identical to early versions of TANKS. So the good news is, I don't have to build my game because it already exists. The bad news is that nobody plays it. Although something just struck me that I'm going to rant about for a moment: If people designed their games to be played with a single player, but with the possibility of playing with multiple players, then the game would still be fun even if there was nobody else online. But it would be MORE fun with additional players. A lot of BYOND games cannot be played at all unless there are other players, which instantly kills any already unpopular game. | |
Oldbie wrote:
I personally believe the main reason why there has yet to be a great game released for a few years is due to the player base of BYOND. A lot of the non anime developers have realized that their work will get no recognition here. You can spend months working on a game with perfected art, sound and game play, yet, you will only get a few dedicated players. I agree with this. I don't know that the reasons are accurate, but I think the results are. People build games and they get little attention, so they give up. The only games that thrive are the games that receive attention during development. If you don't have a fan base driving you to finish your game, whether its people who like your game's theme, gameplay, or your real-life friends. No fans = no game. I've also noticed that the games which I tend to be drawn to are the ones that have active community participation. Games with little or no community get boring fast. How many non-anime BYOND games have an active sub-community built around them? | |
SuperAntx wrote:
Sariat wrote: Nine out of ten games on BYOND are "fan games". Games based on TV shows, games based on movies, games based on games - they're all fan games! Even the idea of an original game has been corrupted in this community - "original" means it was programmed from scratch! | |
then there are all those well developed, intriguing games with "made by the programmer" artwork that eternally suffer a case of stickdrawings-itis because... i don't know... people who make good artwork are scared by the idea of a well programmed game?
there appears to be this constant invisible barrier between the good artists and good programmers (although both of which are very few and far between), and i'm not sure why.
anyways, to at least partially answer your question, BYOND's community has been dragged down in the mud even further by the 8 year old subspecies of anime fans who spew out endless iterations of shameful, abominable rips, causing real artists and programmers to shy away from using BYOND, which has put a real dent in the "games that are actually worth playing" section of BYOND to the extent that there... aren't any at all, really (that have been made recently)
i don't think there's a "next step" for Tom/Lummox to make that would pull BYOND out of its cesspool of bad 'games' and return it to mature, quality material unless they were willing to wantonly delete all unacceptable/ripped content and ban the offenders, which we'll never see happen (and for good reason- i don't think that would ever be an appropriate route to take)