Within BYOND #13

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Feb 27 2015, 7:01 pm
We don't have to try, Byond is dying... We all know it, whoever doesn't think so is just in denial...
Feb 27 2015, 7:22 pm
Alright guys, lets keep calm. First and foremost, any thoughts or implied endorsement which may be presented in Within BYOND are that of my own, and may or may not represent that of BYOND or any other individual, deciding that would be beyond my control. I won't claim to be able to identify content that may or may not have been taken from outside sources. My experiences in that field are rather limited, perhaps more so than the average. Ter13 is correct in that I attempt to provide additional coverage for games that use an original intellectual property, pursue an active development, and who is interested in sharing their developmental progress. Sure, not all of these games may not be perfect in one way or another, but we don't live in a perfect world either, and that is absolutely ok.

Developers who have information about their creations that may have been overlooked, missed, or undercovered are always welcome to provide information on their important developments in the comments section of Within BYOND.
Feb 27 2015, 7:23 pm
Ter13 wrote:

make something cool


Let's hit them with a bang! I'd like to flex our muscles a bit in the next Within BYOND :)
Feb 27 2015, 7:43 pm
In response to Ter13
I'm using rpgmaker assets? everything ive coded and drawn has been by me and no one else. Unless you count some of the code from help i've gotten graciously from the helpful people on here. I dont even know what rpg maker is and my pride would not allow me to do so. Im glad you at least thinks it looks good enough to be considered in this rpgmaker thing, cause im a crappy artist
Feb 27 2015, 7:52 pm
I'm using rpgmaker assets?

Actually, sorry, I mistakenly put you in that list. I mistook you for another game.
Feb 27 2015, 7:56 pm
In response to Ter13
haha thats alright, i just don't want people think that. Especially sense it took me a lot of time to draw everything. Even if its not professional I still have pride in it.
Feb 27 2015, 7:57 pm
haha thats alright, i just don't want people think that. Especially sense it took me a lot of time to draw everything. Even if its not professional I still have pride in it.

Yeah, I don't want anybody to take my mistake and run with it. Sorry again. Definitely have respect for what you are doing.
Feb 27 2015, 8:40 pm
In response to Ter13
Haha yea thats alright you don't need to apologise mistakes happen. Thank you for doing so anyway :
Feb 27 2015, 8:45 pm
In response to MDC
In the next within byond within i personally will probably have nothing. I won't be flexing my muscles for a bit. But others might have cool things
Feb 28 2015, 2:05 am
Ok, point learned. I`ll just do a dbz game since byond community don`t appriciate remaking dbz game into something original with original coding and storyline. Spend alot of time and put in alot of work to be brought down now. Thanks for the support :) Path Of Hero is officialy closed and I really hope you feel better now.
Feb 28 2015, 2:07 am (Edited on Feb 28 2015, 4:28 am)
@Phat T, don't listen to GenesisMagician. He's only here to rip other people apart. Take it from me, letting trolls get under your skin is not something you want to do. I recently let them get to me, and it resulted in 3 months that I could have spent being productive being salty instead.

You are doing god's work, son, keep it up. We need people to actually make games more than anything else. You matter, these fools don't.

http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=137000#comment914332

The community's been saying BYOND's dying since 2002. Just keep on trucking.
Feb 28 2015, 4:49 am
In response to Ter13
Ter13 wrote:
I'm sorry but that just can't come close to compare to SS13.

Yeah... It doesn't have constant lag spikes or poop suits. ;P

well most of the lag's more because BYOND can't handle SS13 than SS13's fault, if BYOND were multithreaded all lag'd be gone
Feb 28 2015, 4:56 am (Edited on Feb 28 2015, 5:03 am)
well most of the lag's more because BYOND can't handle SS13 than SS13's fault, if BYOND were multithreaded all lag'd be gone

Yeah... No. SS13's atmospheric system performs cellular automata. Every individual tile has a pressure simulation going on. That's bad. SS13 would see significant improvements if they were to write a bounding-region based atmospheric simulation.

SS13's codebase is objectively a mess. It's got a ton of poorly written code. BYOND could easily handle SS13 if some of the fat were trimmed. The game leaks like a sieve owing to uncleaned circular references, and there are numerous parts of the code that are constantly working when they should instead be using an observer model.

I'm not saying SS13 is a bad game. I'm just saying that the people who understand DM best aren't working on SS13, and with as many novice programmers have hacked that codebase to death, it's expected that it runs like crap. For God's sake, Supernorn claimed in 2013 that BYOND couldn't do icons larger than 32x32, which has been untrue since at least 2009 or 2010. BYOND is actually a pretty capable little engine. You just have to know how things work internally to take advantage of the engine's strengths.

https://gfycat.com/MellowCapitalBernesemountaindog

^This gif here? At peak, the projectile solver is running 1500 projectiles per frame at 40fps using a softcode movement system. Using built-in pixel movement, the system can handle 3,000 projectiles per frame at 40fps. That's 120,000 moving objects per second that BYOND can power through.

Movement/collision should pretty much always be the heaviest part of your codebase. The fact that SS13's design doesn't allow it to even approach a fraction as many moving objects per frame indicates that it's not the engine's problem. It's the developers'.
Feb 28 2015, 5:07 am
In response to Ter13
Ter13 wrote:
well most of the lag's more because BYOND can't handle SS13 than SS13's fault, if BYOND were multithreaded all lag'd be gone

Yeah... No. SS13's atmospheric system performs cellular automata. Every individual tile has a pressure simulation going on. That's bad. SS13 would see significant improvements if they were to write a bounding-region based atmospheric simulation.

SS13 DOES have region based atmos, it's called ZAS

also isn't it strange we need such complex garbage collectors and master controllers?
SS13's codebase is objectively a mess. It's got a ton of poorly written code. BYOND could easily handle SS13 if some of the fat were trimmed. The game leaks like a sieve owing to uncleaned circular references, and there are numerous parts of the code that are constantly working when they should instead be using an observer model.

I'm not saying SS13 is a bad game. I'm just saying that the people who understand DM best aren't working on SS13. For God's sake, Supernorn claimed in 2013 that BYOND couldn't do icons larger than 32x32, which has been untrue since at least 2009 or 2010. BYOND is actually a pretty capable little engine. You just have to know how things work internally to take advantage of the engine's strengths.

Feb 28 2015, 5:19 am (Edited on Feb 28 2015, 5:36 am)
Oh, looks like things have been updated a bit.

zone/proc/movables()
    . = list()
    for(var/turf/T in contents)
        for(var/atom/A in T)
            if(istype(A, /obj/effect) || istype(A, /mob/aiEye))
                continue
            . += A



^The above is called every time that airflow is updated for a zone.

The zone should be keeping a running list of all non-effect movables, rather than regenerating that list every time you need to make an airflow change.

/atom/movable/proc/RepelAirflowDest(n)
    if(!airflow_dest) return
    if(airflow_speed < 0) return
    if(last_airflow > world.time - vsc.airflow_delay) return
    if(airflow_speed)
        airflow_speed = n/max(get_dist(src,airflow_dest),1)
        return
    if(airflow_dest == loc)
        step_away(src,loc)
    if(ismob(src))
        if(src:status_flags & GODMODE)
            return
        if(istype(src, /mob/living/carbon/human))
            if(src:buckled)
                return
            if(src:shoes)
                if(istype(src:shoes, /obj/item/clothing/shoes/magboots))
                    if(src:shoes.flags & NOSLIP)
                        return
        src << "\red You are pushed away by airflow!"
        last_airflow = world.time


^polymorphism abuse

There's a boatload of stuff wrong with the codebase. --BYOND could handle it. Were it written competently.


also isn't it strange we need such complex garbage collectors

Actually, you don't need complex garbage collectors. You just need to keep track of your references and clear them when they are no longer applicable. You only need complex garbage collectors when you've already done something wrong.

TL;DR: Show me a CPU profile of a running SS13 server at load, and I'll show you a hundred things that can be improved.
Feb 28 2015, 12:52 pm
Feb 28 2015, 1:18 pm
In response to Unwanted4Murder

++ xD.
Feb 28 2015, 1:23 pm
Making it to the front page of the BYOND Times ain't easy, I think as long as we got dudes like Ter13 fighting the good fight against negative nellys, BYOND is going to be alright.
Feb 28 2015, 7:23 pm
Ter's right about the efficiency issue of course. BayStation's code for instance includes a copy of Deadron's lists library--generally copying libs is bad form, but I get why SS13 would work out better that way--which predates list.Insert() and therefore has to do a lot of gymnastics to allow for inserts. With a big list that's crazy inefficient, and that's just one minor part of the code.

Which issues persist across which codebases, I can't say. But I can say there's likely a ton of room for improvement. At any given time the station isn't changing a lot, so the master controller (do all builds have that?) shouldn't have much to do under normal circumstances. Yet I know well how hard it is to revamp a system that's working but might not be the most efficient it could be.
Feb 28 2015, 7:30 pm
In response to Lummox JR
Lummox JR wrote:
Yet I know well how hard it is to revamp a system that's working but might not be the most efficient it could be.

I bet you do...

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