Aug 23 2006, 7:42 pm
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Xeal
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LOL UR MUM
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Worldweaver:
Sorry I disagree with that. I don't beleive there is much a of disparity between the level of skill in game design on their team, and that no one really proved themselves as a leader. That's the problem though. If I were to create a design team for Acheron's Awakening without someone designated to make the final call on decisions, do you think that anything would get done? Even if it managed to get finished, would all the pieces fit together coherently? Writers have editors, but they don't send off their novel to have a committee vote on the different aspects of the story before it gets published. One of my favorite Steve Jobs quotes is this: "It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them." | |
That's the problem though. If I were to create a design team for Acheron's Awakening without someone designated to make the final call on decisions, do you think that anything would get done? Even if it managed to get finished, would all the pieces fit together coherently? I think it's important that if you're working with a team, you establish a vision for your project. That way it's quite possible for it to piece together well. Infact, I think that getting the team in on the vision makes them more enthusiastic about working on the game. If you were to just have a team with a programmer, icon artist and 1337 M4p m4k3r, without an established idea, then yes I totally agree with you. EDIT- I'd also like to add that it works the other way too(with one executive) quite well. But there is always the possibility co-operation. | |
When did I say I did not know anything about your games? I have played them, how else would I know they were fun? I still have heard bad things though. I am not saying they are true, but with the way you act the rules should just be ignored, I would not be surprised that people would just get away with anything. Our community is still around as well, even with these "bad" changes.
I have read it before, and I do not see anything in there that contradicts what I believe or proves that I am doing anything wrong. One of the main things Mettool said was that we ignored him and treated him as just a host without equal say. But now you are suggesting that we should do just that. Our game has not gone down the toilet. It has gotten better and will continue to do so. It has been great by discussing things with the entire group, and we will continue to do so. Our team is not very large, so many people will do multiple things, even when it comes to design. Large games have many designers who discuss things and come to conclusions. Although they do have a head designer that makes a final decision, our method still works well. I have not said anything that proves that he is correct in anything. He claims that we ignored him and did not give him equal say. You claim that my equal treatment is bad. A bit contradicting if you are going to try to prove I did anything wrong to him. Our design decisions are not flawed. They work well for us, and it is what we like to do. It does not make it any better or worse. How is our moderation ridiculous? What have we done that is so bad? Enforce the rules, care about the game, something else? We did hear what he had to say, and we discussed it much. I was there, and I know what happened. If you are going to keep calling us "commie", then you would know that we value equality and did hear what he had to say. | |
Silk didn't say the rules shouldn't be ignored. He insinuated that some of the rules made up by the moderators are flat out stupid.
And as for Druid's proof, for the past year practically, he has been telling me how he should just quit as host because things are going down the tube on THG and the moderators won't listen to his suggestions. It's all fine and dandy that you say that his opinion is welcome now, after the fact. But face it, you didn't listen to his suggestions (most likely because you were busy listening to more insistant peoples ideas [which doesn't mean they are the better ideas]). Of course, it's not like you're gonna take my word for it... | |
There is nothing to face, we did listen to them. In fact, one of his suggestions was even added to the game. Why should your word be taken when I was there? What makes your information better than someone first hand?
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Silk didn't say the rules shouldn't be ignored. He insinuated that some of the rules made up by the moderators are flat out stupid.
And as for Druid's proof, for the past year practically, he has been telling me how he should just quit as host because things are going down the tube on THG and the moderators won't listen to his suggestions. It's all fine and dandy that you say that his opinion is welcome now, after the fact. But face it, you didn't listen to his suggestions (most likely because you were busy listening to more insistant peoples ideas [which doesn't mean they are the better ideas]). Of course, it's not like you're gonna take my word for it... | |
Alright, this is my last post because long debates make me die inside.
Kija: When did I say I did know anything about your games? I have played them, how else would I know they were fun? I still have heard bad things though So you've played my games and you liked them, but you've HEARD bad things about them? What? Kija: One of the main things Mettool said was that we ignored him and treated him as just a host without equal say. But now you are suggesting that we should do just that. Exactly. As just a host he SHOULDN'T have equal say. I'm not worried about Mettool being miffed over not having a equal say- you're missing the point. Druid claims that your game is starting to suck due to bad moderation and poor design. You're attacking him like he has no ground upon which to say this. I'm saying that he does. I didn't reply to this thread until YOU posted and proved to me that his claims are probably dead on. Kija: A bit contradicting if you are going to try to prove I did anything wrong to him. From what you say he should be an equal, but he didn't receive equal treatment. See the contradiction? The only thing that you did wrong was come on here and act like everything that he said was a "false accusation" and that he had no basis for his claims. Clearly he does. Kija: How is our moderation ridiculous? What have we done that is so bad? Enforce the rules, care about the game, something else? Worrying about a sentence in all capitals here or there is a sign of micro-management moderation. Here's another sign: http://ffhg.proboards33.com/ index.cgi?board=announce&action=display&thread=1146521518 Micro-managing players is pretty much the worst thing that you can do as a moderator. I won't try and prove that to you though- I'll let you discover it for yourself. | |
Stupot:
Silk didn't say the rules shouldn't be ignored. He insinuated that some of the rules made up by the moderators are flat out stupid. Exactly. | |
I heard bad things about the community. Even with the time I did play, some people were extremely rude. It was fun though, so I still enjoyed to play, as people still enjoy to play our game, even if they disagree with some of the additions.
I never said everything he said was wrong. I said the claim that he did not have an equal say and treated as just a host was a false accusation. The other information I gave my opinion on and stated that it still remained just that, and it was not my intention to prove them wrong or change them. He has plenty of ground to believe that the additions and design is bad. But he does not have so in the claiming that we ignored him. | |
I like swear/spam filters. People who swear(or spam) are immature, and don't have a big enough vocabulary to deseve any respect.
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Swearing doesn't mean you have a small vocabular. How does it even mean that? "Curse words" are a lot stronger than other words. It just means that you are trying to stress a point or something of the like. Tell me a better way that is just as powerful and meaning to people as saying "SHUT THE FUCK UP!". Than I will buy the arguement that because someone curses they have a small vocabulary.
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I don't really think that swearing is even the issue here. Swear filters are both acceptable and unnecessary. But rules such as, no more than 3 capitalized words, are dumb.
The main problem with those stupid little rules is that they really discourage game growth. Sure people playing the game might not care, but it makes your game's community seem quite unfriendly when you log in and you're slapped down for stupid rules like that within 5 minutes. | |
lies
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Kija, I'm still quite shocked you and your team have not realized the utter stupidity of the party limitations that you have enforced in the game.
Say a party of new people is doing quite well but that before they beat the first boss (that Vampire in the castle), they need to log off for the night. The next day, all but one or two of the people from the previous day's party beat the boss but those who weren't on are now left behind. They arenow forced to on their own to over-level to stand a chance against the first boss with their small party or wait for new people to come on (And you better darn well hope that a day never comes when the stream of incoming new players ends or your party limitation system will definetly blow up in your face). You're forcing people to be more dedicated to this game than compared to a normal game or else they'll be left in the dust. The situation gets even worse if you're stranded on later bosses and there is no sign of anybody coming up from below you to be your new party mates. Basically, your party limitation system has the effect of raising ocean levels so that only stranded islands of players who have no contact with each other exist. If this doesn't completely stop progress in the game (aka, player quits), it will greatly slow down their progress for a uncertain period of time. Edit: Also in no way shape or form is your game meant to be played solo especially due to the russian roulette style of certain monsters just outright EATING you and killing you instantly. However your party limitation system makes it so that solo play is the only option at times. It seems like you guys are trying to put alot of emphasis on the journey of the game instead of the destination of beating it which I think is a sound philosophy but I believe you're putting far too much emphasis on the journey to the point that you're turning the journey into a fucking Bataan Death March. | |
As I stated when explaining the limitation, it allows a one boss difference. For those that have defeated Vallatio, the vampire, they can still party with those that have not. There are still plenty of people to party with.
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What is it with all these Final Fantasy fangames that are complete and utter nazis with their rules and overmoderation?
Why the hell are you disciplining people for using more than 3 words of capital letters in a sentence? I can see an annoyance if you have someone saying everything in caps, sure, but that's completely ridiculous. Almost everyone on a "development team" got BYOND has no idea how to run a successful online game. I see a lot of powerhungry people looking for excuses to ban, and I see people not listening to other people's opinions. I'd rather play something completely unmoderated, because then at least I wouldn't have 5 moderators logged on all the time telling me how to chat with my friends in private. | |
It is not over moderation, and calling someone a nazi is pretty harsh. Even with the rules that seem strict, they are still enforced fairly.
Enforcing a very minor rule does not make one power hungry or looking for excuses to ban. I do not remember a single person who has any major discipline from using excessive capital letters; they are simple asked nicely to use less. I believe that is very fair, nor is it ridiculous. The majority of the rules are based on what is said on public channels, which is not in private. Private channels are not even moderated and have no filter. | |
...because then at least I wouldn't have 5 moderators logged on all the time telling me how to chat with my friends in private. Haha, I remember you telling me about that. The thing that eventually drove me to giving up on FF:THG was the severe grindiness and almost luck-based outcomes of fights. Since there's really no solo progression at all, it focuses on parties so extremely that not even basic parties work out well either. Just about every time I joined a party with a red mage or thief I asked myself if it was worth it to play because in my eyes they just aren't good to party with. Smaller parties weren't very fun either because progression was still non-existant. Then there was the time I got left behind on bosses for several weeks at a time because I constantly kept missing the waves of people who moved through it. Wasn't one of the main reasons for implementing the partying restrictions was due to the fact that people were getting powerleveled by stronger people? Maybe there's a reason for this? Going to new areas and fighting new enemies is fun, but trudging around on the same screen for 1001 Arabian nights just to barely get strong enough to get through the first boss isn't. The "veteran" players can proclaim they did it without higher people helping them but it's dishonest to say so; they still had each other when the game was more popular and newer, effectively powerleveling each other because it hadn't worn away at them yet. If anything, due to the nature the game is made there's already a secondary difficulty that revolves around player flow. I can't wrap my brain around how anybody who supported the restrictions thought it would be a good idea in spite of these problems. On top of that, from what I hear about V8 is "Stronger bosses! Harder areas!" More unique bosses with added difficulty? Jeez, I always thought the bosses were a little strong in the first place. V8 actually makes them sound not worth fighting to me. The only thing player-side that seems to be mentioned is "class editation with new skills to make them more unique" but nothing about effectiveness or even interest. It's one thing to not spoil anything, but updates feel so in the dark I'm surprised anybody looks forward to them. I have an idea where Druid is coming from with this. I know exactly what it's like to have every suggestion ignored and slipped under the rug of "we have to listen to everybody." Besides, this was his way of ranting to people who wouldn't shut up about asking why he quit THG anyway. It's not like this was his goodbye post or anything. Edit: I swear this wasn't as long as it was in my head. | |
I have seen many small parties, and all have worked out well.
It would not matter how easy the game is, people will still want to power level. Some people always want it easier and faster. With a one boss difference, there are plenty of people to party with. Trying to party with anyone else would not be neccesary, and most people do not even notice the limitation because they stay within the limits with no problems. I do admit, there are some problems, but it is not as if we are completely ignoring the problem and not working to make the game better. In the past, the bosses were very easy. They are bit harder now, but they are also much more fun. From the feedback given from the players, they enjoy the bigger challange and uniqueness. When adding new skills, one of the main reasons is for the class to be more effective. Most reasons are implied. It would be silly to just add more skills with no purpose. I believe we have given much information on the updates to keep people updated. We have done public tests, released information a long the way, and have given details and summaries for what is planned. I could understand if his suggestions really were ignored, but they were not. It is one thing to rant but another to actually claim that the people who worked with him for over a year, helped him, listened to him, and treated equally were just people who abused him and treated him as nothing but a host. As I said before, some of his suggestions have been added to the game. He was never ignored. | |