I think it is funny that fizzy has only posted on the first page of this thread, the rest of it is everyone else chiming in.

What I don't understand is why people who feel the way fizzy does bother to stick around. Look at the last things fizzy wrote:

I already put more effort than it was worth by writing a meager thirteen paragraphs even proposing it.

Are we gonna listen to this guy? Thirteen paragraphs suggesting something that has already been considered, beaten to death, and decided against with very good reasoning? That is what you call effort? Why are you here?

Even you seem plainly aware of the looming death of the software in the face of its irrelevance, which is already the case.

Yes...when I am ready to quit a project, I usually make a huge effort to push out a big, ground-breaking update and THEN I quit. Cutting your losses is for noobs!

What fizzy is NOT aware of is his own ability to cherry-pick what he doesn't like and only focus on that. Sure, Tom mentioned the fact that this is a legacy project and he's not necessarily going to the ends of the earth with it. But he has been saying that for many years now, and we just got the most important update in the history of BYOND. Your logic circuits really have to be failing miserably to think that "looming death" is the only thing on Tom and Lummox's minds.

Best of luck to your project, but you've already seem to have come to terms with its passing.

Are you trying to guilt-trip Tom and Lummox? Why? You have already stated that you would only be interested in BYOND if they took on a task that is basically a huge waste of time for very little benefit. Since they are obviously not going to do that, the only logical course of action would be to stop posting. Tom has said over and over, "if BYOND doesn't do what you want to, then don't use BYOND." It really could not be simpler than that.

BYOND does what I want it to do. Therefore, I will continue to use it. I just want to encourage others to make clear decisions and not to fall into this lunacy that fizzy and others have. If you have a constructive suggestion for BYOND, it will be entertained. These people are not ignoring us and they have worked really hard to deliver. But you can't just come around with this "re-write the whole damn engine" campaign. If you are capable of doing "so much more" but you are being held back by BYOND, then the problem is that you are an idiot and need to leave now and find a "real" programming language. Make a clear decision. If you are going to put time and effort into DreamMaker then go for it and don't blame the engines creators for YOUR faults and failures.

There is definitely an in-between. BYOND, as a whole, is already "in-between." It is not the game-maker that everyone knows about, but it is not a dead piece of history on the internet either. Why is that so difficult to see? Tom said a long time ago that he wasn't going to waste all his effort turning BYOND into a sustainable business. He said he would try a few more things and see how it goes. And he is doing just that. That isn't laziness, and dismissing suggestions that are unrealistic isn't laziness either.

Well we definitely didn't ignore what he said. Tom's already stated that the suggestion just isn't feasible or practical, as nice as it might be. I think we should leave it at that, as both Tom and Popisfizzy have said their piece.

Magicsofa wrote:

There is definitely an in-between. BYOND, as a whole, is already "in-between." It is not the game-maker that everyone knows about, but it is not a dead piece of history on the internet either. Why is that so difficult to see? Tom said a long time ago that he wasn't going to waste all his effort turning BYOND into a sustainable business. He said he would try a few more things and see how it goes. And he is doing just that. That isn't laziness, and dismissing suggestions that are unrealistic isn't laziness either.

No where did I say he had to turn it into a sustainable business. I'm talking about improvements to the software. If all that's going to be said about most suggestions "if it doesn't do what you want to already then find something else" then why bother updating the software at all. Why bother asking people to still suggest something if 99% of it won't even be implemented.

There have been threads where Lummox himself has said something is easy to implement and that it'd be a good idea and it's been, in some cases, YEARS and still not implemented. The examples are there, you just have to search for them. I'm not saying they should turn this into a sustainable business nor to do the opposite. I'm saying to be clear as to what they want exactly. Because one second it seems like they don't want to improve/update the software, then the next second they're doing just that with some feature that brings in nothing. Look at how long it took for the flash client, and back then they stopped working on a ton of suggestions just because it took priority. It isn't easy to know what will work and what won't, but it isn't rocket science either.

The attitude "Why should we listen to him?" is exactly what the hell I'm talking about here. It doesn't matter who the hell he is or whatever. If you want improvement then it's best to listen to someone who's trying to help. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's just sick that the few people that post here every day are the only ones who ever see anything they suggest see the light of day.

I'm not saying this is a 100% thing and always happens, but it's a majority thing. Anyways, enough of my derailing. Sorry for going off-topic everyone.

Yes, BYOND has in fact influenced my ability to program games even in C++. As a matter of fact, I used what I learned during the development of text objects for a C++ version of "SkyDrop Delivery" (which was almost done, but may need to be redesigned due some engine issues). Plus, the concept behind text objects is very similar to what they use in some retail games.

Another thing I already mentioned earlier is that BYOND has influenced my ability to reverse engineer (which as stated earlier, you already know.). Been years since I have ever distributed my version of any DMB String Extractor (outdated now since v500). One of the reasons for not reverse engineering the DMB format as much anymore is so I can work on other projects (like new games or even more ambitious projects).

Technically, I have never retired from BYOND regardless of my previous attempts to do so. I keep coming back and I have a way to coming back with new and exciting projects. One such example was 2010 (where though I experimented a bit in 2009, nothing was really produced on the DM front) where I got back into DM programming and finally working on a new game. I have a feeling there will be another time I'll be back to DM programming in full force (though I will also be programming in other languages including new ones being developed).

Recently, I start delving into a raycasting engine of my own (which is currently behind Ter13's "DawnCaster Infestation"). Right now, it is only an experiment. I also have plans for new projects (which are currently unannounced).

BYOND may not attract everybody, but it does serve one great purpose. It can introduce programmers into more advanced programming languages (such as C++, C#, Java, etc.) and can actually learn them at the same time. Even when I have learned C++, I still program in DM since it already provides a working form of networking. Game Maker maybe more popular, but networking you pretty much have to handle yourself regardless of it providing such a feature. By handling yourself, I mean handling socket framework yourself.

While handling socket framework yourself does have advantages, it of course has disadvantages of taking more time to finish projects as well as anything could go wrong if you don't program them properly. The way I see BYOND/DM is that it provides a working networking framework (even if it may not be the fastest), speeding project production. That is actually one area I'm still trying to fix in the C++ version of "SkyDrop Delivery". Overall, I have had a great time working with BYOND and I do plan to bring something new to the table in the near future.

When I say good things about BYOND, I really do mean it. As I have stated, I know it is not necessarily the fastest in terms of performance. However, it does not mean it is a terrible programming environment. What makes BYOND/DM great to use is provided networking support and a great place to start programming before moving on to more advanced programming languages (as in programming languages that would actually take years to master, maybe never for some). Overall, I have managed to produce quite a couple games compared to like maybe 1-3 games total in C++ in my lifetime at present. That is all I have to say.

Edit: All of sudden, I feel inspired to create something new. Yes, I have learned some HTML5 a few years ago, but the recent webclient is giving me some inspiration.

Tom wrote:

[..]
Thank you those of you who have appreciated BYOND and perhaps used it to better your life in some way.

I gotta say, BYOND got me started on what I like doing most in life: programming. It was a long road to get where I am today, but if I didn't start as early as I did, I wouldn't be where I am now. Thanks! It's hard to believe it's been ~8 years already.

some of us are working on it...

Zasif wrote:

Stop blaming us for not making games, its not so simple some of us really want to make awesome games its just the lack of art that ruins it all, having to make pixel art is the most hard thing, because you either gotta pay someone to do it or you have to learn it to do it yourself which is just a turn off at least for me. And some if not most so called pixel artists on byond are well...meh(kids mentality).

Then use place-holder art.

I agree with Kozuma. Placeholders are fine until you can find a real artist.

Also, you don't have to pay someone. I have seen collaborations work just fine here, with nobody getting paid. But unless you are either a well-known developer who is trusted to finish projects, or have a mostly-functional game to show off, pixel artists would be smart NOT to join your project and waste all their time drawing icons that will never be used. You need some sort of credentials before any decent artist will consider helping you, you can't just make a hub with one screenshot and say "need artist" and expect results...

So really all I can see from the non-placeholder-mentality is "well, no artist is joining my project which is at 0% completion, I might as well give up"