Just going to throw in my 10cents here. Biggest factors gotta be the Motivation, and then again a lot of things can tie into this.
Usually what begins a project(at least in my experience) is like a great idea, "what if we do this, or this, or add this to the game y'know make it y'nique" To me this is the motivation starter when a group of people start up a project, and the motivation sticks for a little bit. Now for me i try and at least make some effort to build up a world being an artist and all but once you build up some sort of foundation nothing seems to be like what y'"envisioned" it to be all dat sexy y'niqueness.To me this is usually where i tend to start disagreeing with how the project is going(yes i know im horrible) and i lose motivation. Now there have been times where i get past this and it's usually what i want to keep happening my partner(programmer w/e) would at least in my experience make like this combat system that's cool and works "ohmegerd da real time action stuff" and it keeps me going.(this project actually got canceled cause i got a job and he got another artist, i didn't like how it was goin and quit broke it off, dawg)
Another thing would be like what southend said communication. I come to make games as a hobby, yes it'd be hella nice if i could pay the bills with it but nope y'cant so it's okay for me as a hobby that pays a bit in the end.There doesn't seem to be much support given off to the pixel artist or me for example, a guy wants me to make a ex:tree and that's it they just want a tree it feels like a false sense of direction when what they ask next is always "are y'done yet?" instead of like "y'should make the tree look dis way, maybe something like this[insert reference picture]" and another thing with communication is that they make it feel too much like work, like work work, and everybody hates work z_z. It feels like you're just a part of the group doing this and the boss is there, y'never know what he's doing he just needs you to get the job done. That's at least why i despise large groups atm that is,(btw srry if im dragging this on or it doesn't make sense, i repeat english is not my first language :C) When you'd prefer like more of a friendly partnership where y'talk to each other often girlfriend each other up,and actually talk to each other(this to me creates motivation too :D)
Ba ba dum now the last part. I honestly think some things just don't turn out as it should or something(can't explain this z_z) Honestly i've looked back on spirit age a lot it looked really promising but after seeing how its' been lately tbh it looks horrid (don't get mad at me D:) If it was me on that i'd probably want to leave because the direction of the project took off somewhere different then what i intentionally expected.
(PS)There are probably more stuff but it's 2am here jsut got back from the farm too z_z i'll think of it when i wake up tmrw or something.
How to get motivation.
1. Quit working with programmers who think they're designers. 2. Quit doing something you are only doing because you think someone else thinks it'll be fun. 3. ??? 4. Actually make a game worth playing because it's in your interests and you aren't lying to yourself. ~rip zane ~rip toyako ~rip Bteks * death in progress * | |
I understand where you are coming from, but say it's a two man team.
My question is, as the programmer why should I have to tell the artist how to do their job, then turn around and do mine? I've been in that situation before and I don't think the guy realized how much work it was for me. Get examples of what I want, answer questions every 5 mins(literally) If I'm on a team and I say, "you handle the art"-that's what I mean. lol I'd be happy with the artist's judgment. It's akin to a programmer stopping you every 10 mins while you're trying to pixel to ask you programming questions. In general while you may not agree, I think artists should be able to maintain their own work ethic to a degree. Having people motivate you is a good thing, but to me there's a sort of point where it's less about motivation and more about "attention". The rest of the points you bought up- all make sense. I suppose my experience is a bit..err jaded though with the experiences I've had. | |
Avidanimefan wrote:
If I'm on a team and I say, "you handle the art"-that's what I mean. lol I'd be happy with the artist's judgment. It's akin to a programmer stopping you every 10 mins while you're trying to pixel to ask you programming questions. Just because someone can draw doesn't mean they are creative. It's basically what Baird just said about working with programmers who aren't designers. A game designer is like a movie director. The director doesn't actually do the writing or acting, he just knows how to visualize the script and take the story from paper to the big screen. Without a creative guy calling the shots on set, all you have is a bunch of actors and writers, but no one who knows how to make it all come together. You also need a director ( designer ) when you're making a game. Just because you tell someone "do the art", that doesn't magically grant them the creativity required to visualize how the game is supposed to look. Your artist is asking you questions not because he's a bad artist, but simply because he probably can't visualize what you want. Programmers are the same way. Telling your programmer "we need a boss fight" isn't enough. Unless he's just as creative as the designer, he's going to need specific details of what that boss fight needs to consist of. In the real world, writers and designers work with the artists so the artist knows exactly what he needs to draw. The character's background, his race, his personality, his abilities, all of this information enables the artist to do his job. Now imagine if he didn't have any of this information and the artist was just told "hey bro, we need some new characters ASAP. HANDLE IT BRO! k bai". What the hell is that artist supposed to do with no details and instructions? He wouldn't know where to start. When I did work some art for a guy named Fantasie, I had to ask him 0 questions. Why? Because he sent me a text file in which he wrote a paragraph for each individual monster which described what it needed to look like, what kind of abilities it used, etc. So there was no confusion. Everything was neatly laid out for me, I didn't have to sit and wonder what this guy wanted his game to look like. Designer conveys information to artist. Artist transfers information into pixels. Pixels are sent back to designer. Everyone is happy. THAT's game development. Game development in a team isn't some lone wolf environment where everyone is in their own little world doing their own little thing. It's not enough to just say "I'm programming, you do the art, now leave me alone and do your job." If you want to lone wolf and not be bothered, then just make your game yourself. Yut Put, Oasis, Forum_account, to name a few make the entirety of their games or almost all of it by themselves. I find it awkward that someone with an anti-social outlook toward development wants to be in a team in the first place. | |
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Game development in a team isn't some lone wolf environment where everyone is in their own little world doing their own little thing. Unfortunately, since people lack the creative mind of making an enjoyable experience it feels like it. I don't like to call myself a programmer but I have to do it because no one else will. I know it requires a team and all and since I'm not a full fledged programmer who knows DM in and out I have my own limits. Example ------- We're in the middle of the desert, trying to arrive to a town known as paradise once you're there you're happy for life. The Artist makes the car we're in looks good to make an impact when we show up.*Not really needed to get there, but it helps a LOT when it comes to popularity.* The programmer is the only one who knows how to drive and fix the car when it breaks down. The designer is the only one who can see the paradise at a distance, and the only one who believes it's there. Programmer leaves, the car breaks down and we're stranded in the desert. Artist leaves, gotta buy a beat up rental car*free pixel art*. Now there's this one designer trying do all three jobs by himself to make it to the destination. Mapper "hey you forgot about me!" Screw you. ^That would be a good BYOND comic. Or it's just a time thing where everyone doesn't have enough time to put alot of effort into a game. In reality they do have the time but just don't think it's worth cutting off other things they do daily to do something more productive. | |
That's all understood. But by the same notion, the artist repeatedly asking the programmer who isn't a game designer for input isn't practical. That's all I really meant.
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Avidanimefan wrote:
That's all understood. But by the same notion, the artist repeatedly asking the programmer who isn't a game designer for input isn't practical. That's all I really meant. I'm curious then. Who exactly IS the designer in your two-man teams, if it's neither you nor the pixel artist? | |
I think you misunderstand a bit.
When working on a project and we've already ironed out the details(I'm one of the few who actually believes in a GDDoc), everyone knows what to do-but then the artist hits me up every 5 mins like "is this right, do you like this, what do you think about this"(this happens..ALOOOOOOOT most artists seem like they can't work unsupervised *at least the few I've worked with* If we agree, on sharing workloads-that obviously isn't 50/50. I shouldn't have to google images, link you to them, critque and tell you this color looks off, etc etc (atleast not every few minutes) if they have the same access to the project I do. Especially if I've already said "go crazy and let your imagination run wild, you're the artist!" Now granted, communication is important but the work load is then more like 80/20 -I'm suddenly game designer and programmer, and sole driving force of the project which means unless i initiate telling said artist what to do, they just won't do anything at all. And yes these are actual experiences I'm talking about here. So my point is where does the line blur in fostering motivation-and becoming a project director in conjunction with programming the game? To me few people I've worked with have been able to share the work load and end up reverting into "worker bee" mode. I'm sure the artist would feel the same way if he told me the programmer to just do as I see fit but every few minutes I was screen shotting progress and showing him :
world<<"OMGUISE look what I did"
*As a fex* So far there's really only been one exception to all of the stuff I stated up above. And that's because he's an artist who is used to getting treated the same way I just mentioned. lol -_- | |
You're hiring the wrong people.
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This post doesn't refer to hired people though, If you check the OP-all of those projects featured people who weren't getting paid *to my knowledge*
Anyway this is more of a "needs insight" type question from me to artists. nothing more or less. i'm not looking to hire anyone or even for an artist. It's simply to understand the mindset of other people. | |
Oh I know you weren't paying the people you work with, and the others probably weren't either, and that's why sometimes you get some shit people.
You take development really serious (as a real business decision), and go through the proper channels to the best of your ability, and you might fail.. but your results will hopefully be better. Or, you go with BYOND's realistic intentions as a hobbyist community, and get hobbyist results (which can be a clusterfuck sometimes). The above projects, while not getting paid, had some people who had intense skill, but not the passion (and passion to me includes incentive of any sort), to complete it. Production teams can get the best programmers and pixel artists they want, but sometimes later down the road they just can't manage anymore because the incentives are gone. at a BYOND level, everything here is hobbyist, no one here except for Tom makes BYOND a real commitment. Hobbyists can be great at the end result if they push through it, but in the end are not always the best thing to put your money on. And before you want to go on again about not getting paid, no hiring, no money, thats where some people go wrong. If you want to go into a project with people without getting intensely serious, you're going hobbyist. If you go hobbyist, while you have less liability, you have a greater chance of sending it to hell. | |
Negative. I've actually paid over 1300$ before for an art project. This isn't about money, I think you are missing the entire point of my question.
Motivations are different for many people, I've worked with artists who are getting paid well, but in the end just aren't "interested" in the work. I also think you're reading way too much into the original question. Just throwing money at it and saying "if you pay them enough" doesn't answer "my" question. In fact it also leans it more towards a direction I don't want it to go into : "I'm the boss. so i tell you what to do and then you do it." In short, it's obvious if you hire someone to do a job and pay them correctly what they are worth that it's much more easy to get them to complete work. That's not what this is about. This is about people who, want to make games--in a nutshell. Those who enjoy pixelling, and it's a direct question to them- what causes them to be interested in working (for free) devoting large amounts of times to projects which, in the end never got done. None of that has anything to do with the pay aspect. In short, their motivations for working on a project that they enjoy--what aspects draw them to said projects. | |
It's not about just throwing money either, if you do just throw money without knowing how to actually select people, then you're disgusting and you're defacing the very idea of money.
I'm too stubborn to accept any other answer of "what motivates [x]" that is not "providing high quality work that keeps me in demand", I just find anything else to be a lie, or what just boils down to my answer. | |
well, are you a pixel artist? if so that would be a viable answer. everyone is different. Money motivates some. Some do it because they want to see a game of that type.
Some actually enjoy pixel art. As for long term motivations, those need to be little less shallow. I've worked on several long term projects, sometimes will power isn't enough. Even if I am getting paid it gets tiring sometimes. Sometimes I think "meh. yea I'm getting paid but I don't wanna" For me that motivation comes in to completion of the game. Learning new programming techniques and new ways to do new things in those times. I'm sure for artists it's something different. | |
I used to be a pixel artist on BYOND years ago, I used to fill every position in BYOND game development, but that was a long time ago. The only pixel art I do now, may be adding some tiny tiny effects to rasterized vector images.
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The artist mindset is a bit more fickle in my experience. Honestly what pulls me into staying loyal to a programmer/project is if we both share a passion for the genre/setting of the game, and if all parties are willing to compromise and include other's ideas into the mix.
It also helps to be friendly beyond the scope of the work itself. If you feel you are friends with the person you're working with, I think you have a stronger incentive to work and not let that person down regardless of if you're motivated to work or not. | |
Just make a tree. Give it to them. If they ask for revisions, tell them, "You didn't specify enough. Deal with it." Hell, I never specify. I just hope you have good taste in art. If it's not a tree I don't want, I'll save it if it looks good regardless. I'll use it for a different location in the map and make use of it. The important thing is that the art doesn't go to waste. In the event that you keep producing work that is distasteful, you'll have to be let go from the development.